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B19
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30 Apr 2018, 10:13 pm

The two most affected members of our AS family are third born and second born respectively.

The first borns
My mother was first born (Aspergers)
I was first born (Aspergers) - my father was 24 when I was born
My first born daughter (Aspergers)
My maternal grandmother (Aspergers)
My first grand-daughter (BAP)
My daughter's fraternal twins, my grandsons (Aspergers)

The second borns
My daughter is NT
My brother - Aspergers
My half sister - Aspergers
My second grand-daughter - Aspergers

The third borns
My father - Aspergers
My paternal uncles - suspected Aspergers
My first grandson - frankly autistic non Aspergers type - his father was 20 when he was born

The fourth borns
My son in law (Aspergers)
My paternal first cousin (Aspergers)

There is no pattern in our family that supports the birth order idea or the older father idea.



Aavikkorotta
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30 Apr 2018, 10:45 pm

BeaArthur wrote:
I guess you are not trained in scientific research methods, and that's cool, but I think surveying a bunch of autistic people and asking their birth order, without realizing that self-selection to take the survey is at play, will lead you to wrong conclusions.

Yeah, I didn't get additional education on the subject beyond science and statistics classes in high school.
Regarding googling for the answer before I find my own: yeah, I do that sometimes, but it's not as fun. They usually don't have detailed charts in the articles. (I guess I have to do that anyway. Ho-hum.)
I would say that the self-selection matter is less of an issue when I'm giving surveys, because I don't rely solely on people's willingness to click a survey. I message people and say, "Hey, would you participate in my survey?" (And that's how I got half the responses to my in-progress survey.)

B19 wrote:
There is no pattern in our family that supports the birth order idea or the older father idea.

Ah, but it seems my theory is falling apart anyway.


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Joe90
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30 Apr 2018, 10:47 pm

I'm second born with my mum and third born with my dad. Both my older siblings are NTs.


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Aavikkorotta
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30 Apr 2018, 11:50 pm

There is definitely a link!

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22872214 wrote:
Prior investigations suggest that birth order position may be associated with the risk for developing a pervasive developmental disorder. This retrospective chart review examined the birth order status of 29 psychiatrically-referred patients with Asperger's Syndrome (AS). Eighty-six percent of the subjects were first born. The finding was statistically significant when compared to an expected random distribution of AS subjects χ(2) (1, N = 29) = 9.18, p < 0.01. The reasons for such an association are unclear though birth stoppage, obstetric complications, and immunological mechanisms may play a role.

I even found some charts. :D
Image
BeaArthur wrote:
First google "autism and birth order" and see that much has been written on the subject already.

I'm sorry for doubting the entertainment value of research.


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Aavikkorotta
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01 May 2018, 12:08 am

I'm not taking the older-father idea seriously, but if you have charts in support of it I'll give them a good look.
The issue I have with it is that it would suggest this to be the result of defective genes, and I see nothing defective about our genes.

The birth-order phenomenon is different. It could have a social reason, or it could have something to do with the mother's womb, but I don't know.
Anyway, I'm satisfied. I got a chart. :p


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ASPartOfMe
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01 May 2018, 12:53 am

Not only first born of my siblings but first born of all my cousins.


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01 May 2018, 1:50 am

My mom has four daughters (one with her ex and the rest with my dad) and dad has three. I'm my mom's third and dad's second. I'm the only autistic one, the rest are NTs.



traven
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01 May 2018, 2:01 am

i am oldest, my youngest brother fits the <old AS> definition best, the older brother had some testing done for various problems like headbanging & allergies
i 'only' had issues with food :roll:



Dataunit
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01 May 2018, 4:10 am

I'm first-born.


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whatamievendoing
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01 May 2018, 6:13 am

I'm a first-born and the older of two brothers. My younger brother doesn't have an ASD.

I'm inclined to believe, though, that my AS has less to do with me being a first-born and more with the minor complication that occurred during my birth.


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Nira
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01 May 2018, 6:16 am

I am third from four children. My sister is probably NT and younger brother too. With my older brother I am not sure. Really I want to know expert opinion on him. I think he is narcistic.


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01 May 2018, 7:58 am

Aavikkorotta wrote:
I'm not taking the older-father idea seriously, but if you have charts in support of it I'll give them a good look.
The issue I have with it is that it would suggest this to be the result of defective genes, and I see nothing defective about our genes.

The birth-order phenomenon is different. It could have a social reason, or it could have something to do with the mother's womb, but I don't know.
Anyway, I'm satisfied. I got a chart. :p


In general I would agree, but in some cases autism has been linked to certain micro deletions, and in those cases it would make some sense. Also, in regard to older parents, some autistic people can have a harder time finding lasting relationships which could make it take a bit longer in life for AS genes to be passed down.



eeVenye
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01 May 2018, 8:45 am

There is a flaw to trying to figure a common pattern, in that we know that there are multiple 'paths' to autism: inherited or de novo mutations.

More severe forms of autism arise more frequently from de novo mutations, which again correspond to older parental age. But in the cases where there is a longer family history, the mutations appear to be more stable: more likely to be visible in multiple family members and less impairing than that generated de novo.[1].

Birth order would likely to be a significant correlation in the first case, but largely irrelevant in the second -- which will predominate in any informal survey.


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01 May 2018, 8:49 am

First born of two sisters. My sister was, in all probability, NT.



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01 May 2018, 9:43 am

Both in terms of mappable genes, and in brain structures, autism has been found to be related to schizophrenia and bipolar disorder. (that does not mean a one to one correspondence; that means a higher incidence than you would find by chance alone.)

So, I wonder if some of the family studies that have been done of family structures and autism, would tell an equally compelling picture if these other diagnoses were also reported (they usually aren't). Indeed, some of the individual responses in this thread reflect the same trend; people mention not only the family members diagnosed with autism but those with other psychiatric disorders.


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Aavikkorotta
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01 May 2018, 11:15 am

whatamievendoing wrote:
I'm inclined to believe, though, that my AS has less to do with me being a first-born and more with the minor complication that occurred during my birth.

Maybe birth complications are more common in earlier births. ...but I haven't heard of any birth complications regarding myself. I'd have to see a bunch of aspies acknowledging birth complications for me to take this idea seriously.

Arganger wrote:
Also, in regard to older parents, some autistic people can have a harder time finding lasting relationships which could make it take a bit longer in life for AS genes to be passed down.

Ah, that could make sense.

BeaArthur wrote:
Both in terms of mappable genes, and in brain structures, autism has been found to be related to schizophrenia and bipolar disorder.

That's curious. I know of neither of those anywhere in my extended family. But I have a bipolar friend whose dad and he both show a lot of aspie traits.


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Protestant . Female . Asexual . self-diagnosed Aspie
I enjoy charts, knitting, gaming, and interacting with real but atypical people.