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Kraichgauer
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17 Jun 2018, 9:43 pm

JohnPowell wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
JohnPowell wrote:
I'm not sure why you'd think a white supremacist was the greatest US President. I know films might paint him as a hero but in reality he was not.


The man who freed the slaves, and was intending to grant them full rights as citizens, was hardly the most racist President America has ever had. Lincoln had freed the slaves, reunited the country, and had established America as a major power.
A real white supremacist would be Lincoln's successor, Andrew Johnson, who attempted to undo Lincoln's work by giving full rights of citizenship back to Confederates, and tried to quash the work of the Freedman's Bureau, all the while expressing his race hate.


He didn't "reunite" the country. He was a racist mass killer. He didn't "free the slaves" because he hated racism. He was a white supremacist. The North was getting support from their slave owners. He didn't mention slavery until two years into the war. It was cause Europe had ended slavery he didn't want them getting involved.


Just what sources are you depending on? Because I can tell you, they are not supported by any legitimate historians.


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JohnPowell
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19 Jun 2018, 12:42 pm

Legitimate like Spieilberg? A known liar. Plenty of 'Legitimate' historians will say the war in Iraq was to liberate the Kurds or to remove the "beast of Baghdad".


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JohnPowell
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19 Jun 2018, 12:43 pm

DarthMetaKnight wrote:
Check out Trump's latest claim.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aRw7rSTVRuI

Apparently, the biggest threat to democracy is the Media. :roll:


People like Noam Chomsky have made that point for decades.


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Kraichgauer
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19 Jun 2018, 12:53 pm

JohnPowell wrote:
Legitimate like Spieilberg? A known liar. Plenty of 'Legitimate' historians will say the war in Iraq was to liberate the Kurds or to remove the "beast of Baghdad".


Spielberg is a movie maker, not an historian. I mean guys like McPherson, Kearns-Goodwin, and McCullough who have written volumes on the subject.
What historians say that about the war in Iraq?
Sure, I agree that Spielberg's nice guy image is undeserved, but just how is he a liar?


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Last edited by Kraichgauer on 19 Jun 2018, 1:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Tross
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19 Jun 2018, 1:43 pm

DarthMetaKnight wrote:
Check out Trump's latest claim.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aRw7rSTVRuI

Apparently, the biggest threat to democracy is the Media. :roll:

He really needs to stop throwing childish tantrums whenever someone has the audacity to say something he doesn't like. He's even acknowledged that when he says "fake news" he's really referring to news he doesn't like, so by his own admission we should never take his word when he criticizes any kind of media.
JohnPowell wrote:
People like Noam Chomsky have made that point for decades.
True, but Noam Chomsky is a man of actual legit intelligence. Nothing that orange buffoon says should be taken seriously, and a more pressing threat to democracy is media censorship, which is also a threat to free speech. If Donald had his way he'd be in control of the media, who would only say nice things about him, which by the way, is exactly how his boyfriend Putin has managed to beat the system in Russia and retain control over the country for as long as he has. All I'm saying is, if you believe media is a threat to democracy then censoring it is just as big a threat as either way, someone is in control of the flow of information and how it's presented.



Biscuitman
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20 Jun 2018, 2:21 am

JohnPowell wrote:
He was a racist mass killer. He was a white supremacist. He didn't mention slavery until two years into the war


Quote:
If as the friends of colonization hope, the present and coming generations of our countrymen shall by any means, succeed in freeing our land from the dangerous presence of slavery; and, at the same time, in restoring a captive people to their long-lost father-land, with bright prospects for the future; and this too, so gradually, that neither races nor individuals shall have suffered by the change, it will indeed be a glorious consummation.
--July 6, 1852 Eulogy on Henry Clay

Slavery is founded in the selfishness of man's nature -- opposition to it is in his love of justice. These principles are an eternal antagonism; and when brought into collision so fiercely, as slavery extension brings them, shocks, and throes, and convulsions must ceaselessly follow. Repeal the Missouri Compromise -- repeal all compromises -- repeal the declaration of independence -- repeal all past history, you still can not repeal human nature. It still will be the abundance of man's heart, that slavery extension is wrong; and out of the abundance of his heart, his mouth will continue to speak.
--October 16, 1854 Speech at Peoria

The Autocrat of all the Russias will resign his crown, and proclaim his subjects free republicans sooner than will our American masters voluntarily give up their slaves.
--August 15, 1855 Letter to George Robertson

You know I dislike slavery; and you fully admit the abstract wrong of it.
--August 24, 1855 Letter to Joshua Speed

The slave-breeders and slave-traders, are a small, odious and detested class, among you; and yet in politics, they dictate the course of all of you, and are as completely your masters, as you are the master of your own negroes.
--August 24, 1855 Letter to Joshua Speed

I believe this Government cannot endure, permanently half slave and half free. I do not expect the Union to be dissolved -- I do not expect the house to fall -- but I do expect it will cease to be divided.
--June 16, 1858 House Divided Speech

I have always hated slavery, I think as much as any Abolitionist.
--July 10, 1858 Speech at Chicago

Now I confess myself as belonging to that class in the country who contemplate slavery as a moral, social and political evil...
--October 7, 1858 Debate at Galesburg, Illinois

He [Stephen Douglas] is blowing out the moral lights around us, when he contends that whoever wants slaves has a right to hold them; that he is penetrating, so far as lies in his power, the human soul, and eradicating the light of reason and the love of liberty, when he is in every possible way preparing the public mind, by his vast influence, for making the institution of slavery perpetual and national.
--October 7, 1858 Lincoln-Douglas Debate at Galesburg, Illinois

When Judge Douglas says that whoever, or whatever community, wants slaves, they have a right to have them, he is perfectly logical if there is nothing wrong in the institution; but if you admit that it is wrong, he cannot logically say that anybody has a right to do wrong.
--October 13, 1858 Debate at Quincy, Illinois

This is a world of compensations; and he who would be no slave, must consent to have no slave.
--April 6, 1859 Letter to Henry Pierce

Now what is Judge Douglas' Popular Sovereignty? It is, as a principle, no other than that, if one man chooses to make a slave of another man, neither that other man nor anybody else has a right to object.
--September 16, 1859 Speech in Columbus, Ohio

An inspection of the Constitution will show that the right of property in a slave in not "distinctly and expressly affirmed" in it.
--February 27, 1860 Speech at the Cooper Institute

We believe that the spreading out and perpetuity of the institution of slavery impairs the general welfare. We believe -- nay, we know, that that is the only thing that has ever threatened the perpetuity of the Union itself.
--September 17, 1859 Speech in Cincinnati, Ohio

Let there be no compromise on the question of extending slavery. If there be, all our labor is lost, and, ere long, must be done again.
--December 10, 1860 Letter to Lyman Trumbull

You think slavery is right and ought to be extended; while we think it is wrong and ought to be restricted. That I suppose is the rub. It certainly is the only substantial difference between us.
--December 22, 1860 Letter to Alexander Stephens

I say now, however, as I have all the while said, that on the territorial question -- that is, the question of extending slavery under the national auspices, -- I am inflexible. I am for no compromise which assists or permits the extension of the institution on soil owned by the nation.
--February 1, 1861 Letter to William H. Seward

One section of our country believes slavery is right, and ought to be extended, while the other believes it is wrong, and ought not to be extended.
--March 4, 1861 Inaugural Address



JohnPowell
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21 Jun 2018, 12:35 pm

I'm talking about the war. They were all before the war. The first one males it clear that he was only against slavery because he wanted blacks sent back to Africa.


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kraftiekortie
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21 Jun 2018, 12:40 pm

I feel that Lincoln was actually against slavery for morals reasons---but found it politically expedient to be a "free-soiler," rather than an "abolitionist." He decided his advocacy of a ban of slavery in the "territories" was preferable, for his career, to the advocacy of the total abolition of slavery.

Too political/pragmatic, yes!