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shlaifu
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17 Jul 2018, 5:13 pm

thinkinginpictures wrote:
The reason Putin, Trump, Erdogan and Orban are winning elections again and again is because the Far Right is more popular the Centrist Left.

It is a world-wide phenomenon, and I cannot help but wonder why people find joy in repeating the same mechanism that happened in the 1930's that are happening again in the 21st century.

I'm not saying they are nazis, but the mechanisms are similar to that of the 1930's:

* High unemployment. A "Strong Man" promise to do something about it.

* Hatred towards immigrants or other foreigners. A "Strong Man" promise to do something about it.

* Hatred of the sick & disabled people recieving welfare benefits. A "Strong Man" promise to do something about it.

* Popular Desire for increased military expenditures and re-instatement of compulsory military service. A "Strong Man" promise to do something about it.

So what do all these "Strong Men" promise to do about these "problems"? Well first of all, they all begin with:

Dismantling the Welfare State, draft the sick, throw out foreigners and give hand-outs to big companies to ensure high employment.

They also do more like:

Censoring the press, imprison journalists who are critical to their administration, break old alliances with more liberal nations, and create alliances with dictatorships instead.

For some reason, the people love it. Why?


I'd like to mention: it's not only the populist right, but also the polpulist left that's gaining traction, Syriza in Greece and Podemos in Spain. The whole of south america. And Bernie Sanders, if his campaign hadn't been killed by the centrists.
I guess the answer is: the center rights seem to be convinced more easily to join the far right populists.
In part because they have this odd tendency to try to outdo the far rights, - look at the German CSU which is trying to out-right the AfD, to get its voters back. Same for the Austrian ÖVP, which turned into a carbon copy of the far right FPÖ.


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17 Jul 2018, 7:20 pm

thinkinginpictures wrote:
Fnord, I see you hate welfare and you hate the sick/disabled who try and have a life.
Pray you don't get sick/disabled yourself!
I see you are still conflating/confusing need with want. Those who need something should have it provided to them without having to enslave themselves to a capitalist system. Those who merely want something that they don't need should have to go out and earn it or do without it.

I do not hate the sick/disabled -- it is a blatant lie to claim otherwise. If sick or disabled people can't work to support themselves, then they should have what they need provided to them. People do not need mansions, limousines, private jets, corporate vice-presidencies, and their own personal sex workers; what people need is clean air, clean water, healthy food, reasonable shelter, higher educations, and medical care. If these needs can be provided by the state, then I'm all for it.

Socialists need to get over their "I want it; therefor, I need it" mentality; and if living in a Socialist country is more attractive to you than living in the United States of America, then go live in one.


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17 Jul 2018, 9:53 pm

Magna wrote:
To see that aside from Minnesota, New Mexico and maybe another state or two in the middle of the country voting "blue" (Minnesota just barely), blue states were made up of the densely populated coastal metropolis areas almost exclusively. The higher the population density, the greater the propensity toward groupthink. Aside from those coastal urban densities, the most of the rest of the U.S. was red. I was dumbfounded. I think we were lied to by the media in that regard in a major and unforgivable way.

Seem to me that little towns have greater tendencies toward "groupthink" that cities. After all it is the conservatives of little towns that tend to hate alternate lifestyles, whiles cities folks have no problems with it. In cities you can walk in the streets without be recognized, and there is greater probabilities that there is at least some peoples that share your lifestyle and interests.

Also, I noticed that the frontier with Mexico has a lot of blue; guess they know more than anyone how much troubles the wall would be.

thinkinginpictures wrote:
kraftiekortie wrote:
Because of this stupid thing called "complacency."

People just want things done for them. People want somebody to think for them.


I doubt it. Even if the left did the thinking for them, the people would still disagree with the left.

It is as if the people truly wants a brutal society!

* The People love war and hate peace.

* The People love a public execution every now and then and hate when mentally ill offenders are treated or rehabilitated instead.

* The People really likes when non-convicted are tortured to give confessions. They hate a fair trial.

* The People WANTS disable-bashing. They hate welfare.

There is something fundamentally wrong with peoples, and this is not cruelty or selfishness, this is something else; tribe identity is part of the problem, but I got the impression that there is something else, something fundamentally wrong I can't really pinpoint.



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17 Jul 2018, 10:14 pm

The left is popular with able-bodied slackers looking for handouts; but not so much with people who work for a living.


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17 Jul 2018, 10:15 pm

It's likely a whole snowstorm of small and big things that the left misses as it tries to treat the map as if it were the territory.

One of the things that hasn't helped at least here in the US is that the loudest portions of the left have been arguably anti-nuance. It's tough to tell whether Brendan O'Neill is correct that this isn't the left eating itself but rather just a form of reactionary politics aping as left or whether it's more about weak leadership or the absence of it to curate the message (which - for the radically egalitarian I could see that being an inherent problem).

Someone I'd really recommend if you want to get a sense of what's happening economically and why it's having the impact of increasing populism is Mark Blyth. If I were to offer why downturns or scarcity increase conservatism or moves toward populism its that things do turn back toward survival mentality and it makes sense that when people are headed in that direction they'd be less open or that they'd go into something more like a siege mentality.


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18 Jul 2018, 7:16 am

I think people make a much bigger deal of this than is reality. The response of some has been 'the Dems/left have lost their heads, they are finished!' while forgetting this is merely a 4 year process and America hardly went all in on Trump when you look at the election results. If the Dems win in 2020 should their supporters also say 'oh my God the Reps are gone, they are finished, they have lost their minds!! !'? no, it would simply be just another 4 year process swinging one way then the other.

I think Europe is a different story though. More extreme parties on both the left and right have been gaining traction due to a number of things (mostly the 2008 crash and the migrant crisis in the Middle East & Libya) and to have a stronger identity with fierce policies and nationalistic talk seems to be gaining popularity, as they always do after times of economic uncertainty. A handful of countries have take on new Governments with extreme views, and the UK by way of Brexit, but most have simply tried to adopt a slightly tougher stance on some things to try and maintain most voters.

Sadly people don't learn from history.



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18 Jul 2018, 9:25 am

In Europe According to most Analysis there is a move to the Right as that relates to Jobs, Immigration, and a Shared Sense/Feel of Cultural Identity of course associated with Immigration too.

In the United States the Latest Gallup Poll Indicates the overall Numbers of Democrat Leaning individuals is still Leading over Republican Leaning Individuals by 4 Percentage points; however, the Percentage of Folks who consider themselves
Leaning either Republican or Democrat is as close to the Lowest Percentages, in the Last 14 Years of study. Independent
Leaning Voters at 43 Percent, in Latest Survey, lead both Republicans and Democrats by over 10 Percentage Points now
and this trend is steady since 2009, around the Dates that some Democrats Started to get unhappy about being Forced to Pay for Health Care.

So, while it's Clear what's going on in Europe; there is a Still Growing 'Independent' Factor that cannot and
will not be overlooked in the Next Election as the Clinton Campaign didn't Measure the Gravitas of the Sanders
Campaign for it is True Many Polls Suggested he would have been a better Candidate to Run against Trump
than Clinton as there was a Healthy Number of Folks who moved away from Clinton who were Democrat, and of
Course Independent too.

A Huge Factor Next Election is the one of Health Care that is becoming increasingly unaffordable for the
Majority of Americans. You will not find any Republican Candidate who runs on a Platform of Universal
Health Care, most ironically, except for Trump and that was obviously just another Bold Face Lie.

A Major Factor in the Religious/Republican Right Group think who Bind together over common Bonds
to Vote as a Group Block was the New Right to Civil Marriage by Gay Folks as Led by what 'they' called
in many Republican Circles an "Anti-Christ", Obama (hehe; be careful 'who' you wish for) for Leading a Push
for these New Rights for an excluded Group of Americans.

In my Continuing Anthropological Study of the Entire Human Condition, When Trump Was Elected, even
the Catholic Priest Admitted in that First Day of Trump's Win that America could not even be Recognized
as a 'Christian Country' anymore, so Thank God for Trump (hint: it wasn't designed that way); since Gays
Got the Right to Vote; Pretty disgusting to me considering Gentile Jew Servant Free Woman or Man no more
(that by metaphor means Trangender and Transexual Folks get to go to Heaven too, now) but hey I am just
there to analyze the Religion and Sing. And not unlike the recent Protest with the American Flag that day I refused
to Stand for the Nicene Creed; but considering I am 240LBS now Full of Muscle From Head to toe; no one called me
A Son of A B**ch; at least not to my Face in Flesh and Blood; hehe.

Anyway, this Thread on the Wrong Planet per why the Left is so Unpopular Worldwide has been an
excellent one but the Fact of the Matter in the US according to Latest Gallup Polls is the Republican
Party is the Least popular Party and this Trend has been going on For many Years. It's mostly
a matter in this Country of who gets out and votes. Looks for that to Change Dramatically in
2020, and yes, according to the Numbers now, look for what likely will be a Sanders and Warren Win.

True; Don't Forget the Millennials, too; for that Demographic Will likely be as Motivated to Vote for Sanders
and some new Progressive Benefits as the Republicans were against the Right of Gay Folks to get married',
and Jobs of course, and Immigration to a lesser degree.

And one more thing, it is a Huge Myth that one can Measure the ability of a Person to gain a Substantial
Make a Living Job just by how they look on the outside as far as Being A Big Muscular Able Body Looking
Dude or Woman. Let's not forget Invisible Disabilities like Mental Illness that one can view from the
Comfort of their Air Conditioned Vehicle for the Big Dude on the Side of the Road looking for a Hand
up living in a literal Hell inside his head; sure, like Ex-Military Dudes with PSTD and the Such as that
for true, life is long and one day one may need a Hand up too. Trust me, it can and will Happen with
Rare Disorders like Trigeminal Neuralgia that is the Worst Pain know to Humankind; yes, as assessed
worse than the Pain of Crucifixion; I experienced that from Wake to Sleep for 66 Months, of which several
Years was spent with that condition on the Wrong Planet. You never Heard me whine and complain for I finished
33 months of 66 Months as a Shut-in, with that Hell before I even came to this place.

It's why the way I am treated here or any where else is of zero consequence. Already been to Hell for 66 Months;
no little 3 Hour or 3 Day Tour with the Accolades of Being Called 'God' for that smaller Feat for actually Surviving Hell.
I had 18 other Medical Disorders like Dysautonomia, Spinal Stenosis, Severe Degenerative Arthritis, Sjogren's Syndrome, and Fibromyalgia but they were a Cake Walk Compared to Trigeminal Neuralgia.

Oh yeah, it's also why I am literally Fearless now. I don't like to hear that Able Bodied Bull Crap. Be Careful
what one Wishes for; for 'who' knows there may be worse pains than Trigeminal Neuralgia that haven't even been
Measured now like losing your Emotions and Senses; that one doesn't even have a Label, except nothing
nothing at all; and yes, it is worse than the other Hell, too. And after You Experience it Life is Naturally
Heaven as it is Evolved that way for Living Organisms that and who Survive and Thrive fully alive.

If one doesn't think Health Care and affordable Health Care is important, one just hasn't lived long enough.
Sure, a 300K Medical Bill for a Child who didn't make it; and the Burn on my Wife's Hand associated with an
Epileptic Seizure that was another 100K or so Bucks in Medical Bills, recently too. Sh** Happens and Invisible
Disabilities are a real thingie too. Go Bernie Go for the rest of the Nation who isn't as Fortunate as my Wife
and I to enjoy Life Long Guaranteed Federal Civil Service Health Benefits, like the 'He Men' in Congress.

And it's true, Bernie is a much Better Example of a Good Cop Jesus Christian than my Catholic Priest;
but in the USA it is every American who counts, if you really are American by the ideal at least;
and the 'Real Meaning' of the Flag. It's not one of Group Identity or even Making Money. It is one
of the Right to Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness for all; not fully possible without Good
Health and Care, or Rights for Gays to Get Married and so many other Differences who count too
for Freedom's Wings.

And if this is too Long, so be it, for Life is complicated like that too; it ain't a Simple thing you
learn in School either; So far out of Books it is. And it Dam Sure ain't something you don't
have to Work for; whether that's for Money or Not; and yeah these folks, so-called Folks who
are Able Bodied with Invisible Disabilities they may work harder for the next second of life than
you will ever imagine; and perhaps if you live long enough you will find the lesson then for real.

https://news.gallup.com/poll/15370/part ... ation.aspx


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The_Face_of_Boo
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18 Jul 2018, 9:47 am

They have the reputation of being all talk.



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18 Jul 2018, 9:49 am

Biscuitman wrote:
I think people make a much bigger deal of this than is reality. The response of some has been 'the Dems/left have lost their heads, they are finished!' while forgetting this is merely a 4 year process and America hardly went all in on Trump when you look at the election results. If the Dems win in 2020 should their supporters also say 'oh my God the Reps are gone, they are finished, they have lost their minds!! !'? no, it would simply be just another 4 year process swinging one way then the other.

I think Europe is a different story though. More extreme parties on both the left and right have been gaining traction due to a number of things (mostly the 2008 crash and the migrant crisis in the Middle East & Libya) and to have a stronger identity with fierce policies and nationalistic talk seems to be gaining popularity, as they always do after times of economic uncertainty. A handful of countries have take on new Governments with extreme views, and the UK by way of Brexit, but most have simply tried to adopt a slightly tougher stance on some things to try and maintain most voters.

Sadly people don't learn from history.



The Dems/Left/Seculad are finished for good because they don’t breed as much as the Conservative/Right/Religious people.

Mark my words, Trump will win in 2020 and Pence after him, they will not be able to keep with with the Rights’ higher birth rate. In Europe probably things are similar.

This what happened to Turkey, fellas...



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18 Jul 2018, 10:06 am

^^^
Ever Meet a Majority Left Leaning Hispanic Catholic and the other side of the World.
Doesn't apply 'the same' 'over here'. And the Entire United States is Turning Majority 'Brown'
as we speak, long or shorter.


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18 Jul 2018, 10:14 am

The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
Biscuitman wrote:
I think people make a much bigger deal of this than is reality. The response of some has been 'the Dems/left have lost their heads, they are finished!' while forgetting this is merely a 4 year process and America hardly went all in on Trump when you look at the election results. If the Dems win in 2020 should their supporters also say 'oh my God the Reps are gone, they are finished, they have lost their minds!! !'? no, it would simply be just another 4 year process swinging one way then the other.

I think Europe is a different story though. More extreme parties on both the left and right have been gaining traction due to a number of things (mostly the 2008 crash and the migrant crisis in the Middle East & Libya) and to have a stronger identity with fierce policies and nationalistic talk seems to be gaining popularity, as they always do after times of economic uncertainty. A handful of countries have take on new Governments with extreme views, and the UK by way of Brexit, but most have simply tried to adopt a slightly tougher stance on some things to try and maintain most voters.

Sadly people don't learn from history.



The Dems/Left/Seculad are finished for good because they don’t breed as much as the Conservative/Right/Religious people.

Mark my words, Trump will win in 2020 and Pence after him, they will not be able to keep with with the Rights’ higher birth rate. In Europe probably things are similar.

This what happened to Turkey, fellas...


they are not finished for good. Hysterical people said the same about the Reps in 2008 when Obama got in. I also think Trump stands a pretty good chance in 2020 btw. After that history shows us that there will be a swing the other way, and that won't be the end of anyone either!

Turkey did not turn to Erdogan simply because of birth rate. Turkey is a hugely complex country which borders 8 other countries and had a diverse society being 'the gateway between Asia and Europe'. There are many factors as to why Turkey has gone in the direction it has.



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18 Jul 2018, 10:28 am

Biscuitman wrote:
The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
Biscuitman wrote:
I think people make a much bigger deal of this than is reality. The response of some has been 'the Dems/left have lost their heads, they are finished!' while forgetting this is merely a 4 year process and America hardly went all in on Trump when you look at the election results. If the Dems win in 2020 should their supporters also say 'oh my God the Reps are gone, they are finished, they have lost their minds!! !'? no, it would simply be just another 4 year process swinging one way then the other.

I think Europe is a different story though. More extreme parties on both the left and right have been gaining traction due to a number of things (mostly the 2008 crash and the migrant crisis in the Middle East & Libya) and to have a stronger identity with fierce policies and nationalistic talk seems to be gaining popularity, as they always do after times of economic uncertainty. A handful of countries have take on new Governments with extreme views, and the UK by way of Brexit, but most have simply tried to adopt a slightly tougher stance on some things to try and maintain most voters.

Sadly people don't learn from history.



The Dems/Left/Seculad are finished for good because they don’t breed as much as the Conservative/Right/Religious people.

Mark my words, Trump will win in 2020 and Pence after him, they will not be able to keep with with the Rights’ higher birth rate. In Europe probably things are similar.

This what happened to Turkey, fellas...


they are not finished for good. Hysterical people said the same about the Reps in 2008 when Obama got in. I also think Trump stands a pretty good chance in 2020 btw. After that history shows us that there will be a swing the other way, and that won't be the end of anyone either!

Turkey did not turn to Erdogan simply because of birth rate. Turkey is a hugely complex country which borders 8 other countries and had a diverse society being 'the gateway between Asia and Europe'. There are many factors as to why Turkey has gone in the direction it has.



...and the strongest factor (in Turkey) is because the religious men and women use less condoms and pop more babies.

I have been in Turkey for at least 7 times; the typical secular pro-Ataturk family usually has 1 to 2 kids at most.
But if you go to the more “slummy” part of Istanbul for example you feel you moved to another country with an entirely different culture, you no longer see Turkish women in ’skimpy’ clothes there but you see instead veiled women with... a lot of kids.
Hell, even their kebab restaurants there have gender segregation between men and ‘families’, like in Saudi Arabia.

All these will vote for the Turkey’s “Muslim brotherhood”.



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18 Jul 2018, 10:43 am

Look, in the Muslim societies, it’s very easy to spot conservative people among the crowd: Those who have veiled females = conservatives.
Those who have non-veiled females = most likely liberal and less religious.

If you look at the crowds sheering for Erdogan (ie when doing a speech), you can easily see that 90% of his female supporters are veiled.

This is not a coincidence.



Last edited by The_Face_of_Boo on 18 Jul 2018, 10:45 am, edited 1 time in total.

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18 Jul 2018, 10:44 am

Biscuitman wrote:


Turkey did not turn to Erdogan simply because of birth rate. Turkey is a hugely complex country which borders 8 other countries and had a diverse society being 'the gateway between Asia and Europe'. There are many factors as to why Turkey has gone in the direction it has.


Very true. I don't support the current government but even i can understand why this happened. It's because individualism and democracy are not inherently in our culture.



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18 Jul 2018, 11:18 am

In the United States Muslim's Vote
two/thirds Majority Democratic not
much different than Hispanic Americans
And sure less than African American Folks.
All these Folks are Having Children at Higher rates
than so-called White Bread Republicans; so, this line of
thinking that Folks who Pop out more Babies are more likely to Vote Republican
Fails over here in the Farther West and the Fact is these are the Demographics
that will continue to Grow the Fastest in the United States; there is no stopping it.
Browner And More Likely to Vote Democrat/Independent is coming even Stronger in the US.
It's
Simple Math, too
as these Folks
continue
to 'get together too'.

http://www.pewforum.org/2017/07/26/poli ... ial-views/


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18 Jul 2018, 1:07 pm

shlaifu wrote:
Podemos in Spain.


Affectionately known as Jodemos.


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