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Biscuitman
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24 Jul 2018, 12:30 am

jimmy m wrote:
Biscuitman wrote:
jimmy m wrote:
I think Brexit is a good idea. The EU is not composted of elected officials but rather appointed officials. I feel it is important to select the officials you place in charge of your government


We have European elections here every 5 years. The EU Parliament is made up of MEP's (members of European Parliament


You are correct up to a point. Government in the EU is composed of 3 groups. The European Parliament (EP) which is directly elected, and the Council of European Union and the European Council being only indirectly legitimized through national elections. The European Commission remains the sole initiator of legislation, but the European Council is able to provide an impetus to guide legislative policy. The Commission proposes, and the Council disposes.

The European Commission (EC) is the executive branch which operates as a cabinet government, with 28 members of the Commission (informally known as "commissioners"). There is one member per member state, but members are bound by their oath of office to represent the general interest of the EU as a whole rather than their home state. One of the 28 is the Commission President proposed by the European Council and elected by the European Parliament. The Council of the European Union then nominates the other 27 members of the Commission in agreement with the nominated President, and the 28 members as a single body are then subject to a vote of approval by the European Parliament.

So unless I am mistaken it is a composite of elected and appointed individuals. Anyways from an outsider the whole system seems very confusing.


Most are elected by us, some are elected by those we elect. This link explains it better than I can

http://uk.businessinsider.com/is-the-eu-undemocratic-2016-3

Maybe it doesn't seem such a big deal to some in the UK as we also don't get to elect our Prime minister here, we elect local MP's and they vote to elect the head of the party which is not too dissimilar to how some of the EU leadership works. We also have an entire 2nd chamber of unelected people in UK Parliament.



jimmy m
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24 Jul 2018, 7:24 am

Biscuitman wrote:
Most are elected by us, some are elected by those we elect. This link explains it better than I can

http://uk.businessinsider.com/is-the-eu-undemocratic-2016-3

Maybe it doesn't seem such a big deal to some in the UK as we also don't get to elect our Prime minister here, we elect local MP's and they vote to elect the head of the party which is not too dissimilar to how some of the EU leadership works. We also have an entire 2nd chamber of unelected people in UK Parliament.


Good to know.



Daniel89
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24 Jul 2018, 7:38 am

Biscuitman wrote:

Most are elected by us, some are elected by those we elect. This link explains it better than I can

http://uk.businessinsider.com/is-the-eu-undemocratic-2016-3

Maybe it doesn't seem such a big deal to some in the UK as we also don't get to elect our Prime minister here, we elect local MP's and they vote to elect the head of the party which is not too dissimilar to how some of the EU leadership works. We also have an entire 2nd chamber of unelected people in UK Parliament.


The British system is truly a mess but I think that is whats to be expect from a type of government not born of revolution.

As much as I am in favour of Brexit its ultimate positive is that it could bring an end to Labour and the Conservatives political Duopoly.

Hopefully as third parties grow stronger more people see we will need electoral reform.



Biscuitman
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24 Jul 2018, 7:58 am

Daniel89 wrote:
As much as I am in favour of Brexit its ultimate positive is that it could bring an end to Labour and the Conservatives political Duopoly.

Hopefully as third parties grow stronger more people see we will need electoral reform.


one of the few times we may find ourselves agreeing on a thread about this topic! :D



Biscuitman
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Spiderpig
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24 Jul 2018, 11:02 am

Daniel89 wrote:
The EU wants to send a message to other nations that leaving for them would be bad.


I'm not entirely sure the UK isn't sending back the message that having fifth-columnist member states which may at one time sort of have wanted to be in the union, but not really, can be a mighty destabilizing pain in the rear end.


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24 Jul 2018, 11:16 am

i think of it as: we have control over what we vote for but the government have final say on what happens, all we have access to is the vote and lobbying our concerns with riots or protests whatever good or bad that might cause. in the Remain camp, the government will have continued on its path of austerity caused by immigration among other things whilst the Leave side will ensure that immigrants are deported so they give the native population a chance to work in their own country, stop claiming benefits for nothing etc, well that was what my hope for the future was when i voted to leave.



Biscuitman
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24 Jul 2018, 11:48 am

Scorpius14 wrote:
i think of it as: we have control over what we vote for but the government have final say on what happens, all we have access to is the vote and lobbying our concerns with riots or protests whatever good or bad that might cause. in the Remain camp, the government will have continued on its path of austerity caused by immigration among other things whilst the Leave side will ensure that immigrants are deported so they give the native population a chance to work in their own country, stop claiming benefits for nothing etc, well that was what my hope for the future was when i voted to leave.


Much of the immigration debate was, IMO, a red herring, it was there to catch people. We always had much more control over EU immigration than we were ever exerting and the Govt were always going to continue letting EU immigrants come here in not too dissimilar numbers. The Mobility Framework proposal in the Chequers plan confirms that in my eyes.

Austerity caused by immigration? Never heard anyone even say such a thing before. Austerity was the choice the Conservative Party took following their election in 2010 and was their way of paying down the national debt. 8 years in and debt is nearly double where it was when they implemented austerity.

Image



Daniel89
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24 Jul 2018, 12:16 pm

Biscuitman wrote:

Much of the immigration debate was, IMO, a red herring, it was there to catch people. We always had much more control over EU immigration than we were ever exerting and the Govt were always going to continue letting EU immigrants come here in not too dissimilar numbers. The Mobility Framework proposal in the Chequers plan confirms that in my eyes.

Austerity caused by immigration? Never heard anyone even say such a thing before. Austerity was the choice the Conservative Party took following their election in 2010 and was their way of paying down the national debt. 8 years in and debt is nearly double where it was when they implemented austerity.

Image



That's the nature of debt the its compounds over time. When you are create dependency during a good time dependency will continue to grow during a bad time.



techstepgenr8tion
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24 Jul 2018, 10:13 pm

A few 'across the pond' observations of the EU:

1) In some ways they've been trying to approximate what the US has but we had a really unfair advantage - ie. a clean slate and a continent that we could write from scratch. For any place that has thousands of years of history and identity this is nearly impossible.

2) For as few fans as I'd guess Black Pigeon Speaks has here he did raise a really good point in one of his recent videos, ie. the lack of financial fidelity and communal debt-sharing within the EU. If countries are considered to be in charge of their debt but can't inflate/deflate their currencies in response they're in a difficult bind.

3) The EU doesn't just have a wide range of cultures but a whole cluster of countries in the east that were under communist dictatorship until the early 1990's. They have a very different sense of the ride of history as well as a very different sense of their freedoms as well as what it's like when things kick off.


I think the UK had a series of political issues hit it the right way, mostly about autonomy to handle their own problems but also to a fairly large degree with not just immigration but what kind (ie. skilled, unskilled, religiously moderate or radical).

I've heard leave proponents make great points about autonomy done right paying back (Teresa May might assure otherwise from the way things are looking), and I've heard remain proponents speak just as passionately about how badly the UK did itself in economically and that it'll all hit in the next few years.

Any of these things could be true, but I think it's a matter of public will and will of the political class. It sounds like the political class were nearly unanimous remainers and most leave endeavors are getting sabotaged roundly. It's unfortunate, I think that will lead to a lot of bitterness going forward. I've also heard that UKIP registrars are screaming uncle over how big the stack of applications has gotten. It's almost like the UK's Trump where most people seem either really hot, really cold, and not a whole lot in between.


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25 Jul 2018, 2:45 am

techstepgenr8tion wrote:
1) In some ways they've been trying to approximate what the US has but we had a really unfair advantage - ie. a clean slate and a continent that we could write from scratch. For any place that has thousands of years of history and identity this is nearly impossible.


The land that is now the US had thousands of years of history, too. If that is the problem, well, today there are means more effective than ever to obliterate entire societies.


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25 Jul 2018, 6:44 am

Spiderpig wrote:
The land that is now the US had thousands of years of history, too. If that is the problem, well, today there are means more effective than ever to obliterate entire societies.

Welcome to the human family. Not particularly pleasant being one of us is it.


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cemil
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22 Jan 2019, 1:25 am

nothing would happen..

uks problem and europes problem is still integration of muslims and the long stagnation .



Biscuitman
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29 Jan 2019, 4:00 am

Could be another fascinating day ahead of amendments and motions, depending on which are selected and how the voting goes of course.

The Cooper/Boles and the Brady amendments seem to be the most significant ones.