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Magna
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23 Jul 2018, 9:10 pm

A 1976 World Book encyclopedia set was my first special interest as a child. I was obsessed with it for years. I still have the same set and was flipping through it recently. G on the topic of Government.

Definitions caught my eye:

"Conservatism: is a political belief based on making changes in line with proven values of the past. Most American conservatives, for example, want to hold public governments strictly within the limits of their powers as set forth in the Constitution."

"Liberalism: is a political belief based on a willingness to change ideas and policies to meet problems as they occur."

Put as simply as that, Liberalism would be the perfect vehicle, with no equal, to reverse engineer a desired outcome based on a problem either real, perceived or manufactured.


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DarthMetaKnight
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23 Jul 2018, 9:14 pm

Liberalism is all about democracy and liberty.

Conservatism is all about nostalgia.


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Magna
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23 Jul 2018, 9:21 pm

DarthMetaKnight wrote:
Liberalism is all about democracy and liberty.

Conservatism is all about nostalgia.


I would agree that Liberalism is an ideology compatible with a true (majority/mob rules) democracy of which the U.S. is not.

I would disagree with Liberalism being "all about liberty".


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"There is no love of living without despair of life." - Albert Camus

"Ain't nothing but a stranger in this world
I'm nothing but a stranger in this world" -Van Morrison

"Are you Bluish? You don't look Bluish."

AQ-43 (32-50 indicates a strong likelihood of Asperger syndrome or autism).
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Fnord
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24 Jul 2018, 8:45 am

A Conservative is a person who has just been robbed.

A Liberal is a person who has just been arrested.


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Daniel89
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24 Jul 2018, 8:53 am

Both have multiple definitions.

True Liberalism is classical liberalism and directly opposed to socialism and what is mainstream left wing politics today.

Conservatism varies by nation, here in the UK its the monarchy and the class system. This is what American conservatives rebelled against.



kraftiekortie
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24 Jul 2018, 8:54 am

An overly conservative person is one who FEELS robbed---of the opportunity to rob others.

An overly liberal person is one who coddles robbers, blaming the socioeconomic situation as a default.



DarthMetaKnight
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24 Jul 2018, 9:09 am

Fnord wrote:
A Conservative is a person who has just been robbed.

A Liberal is a person who has just been arrested.


Not everyone changes their political beliefs at the drop of a hat.


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DarthMetaKnight
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24 Jul 2018, 9:14 am

Daniel89 wrote:
Both have multiple definitions.

True Liberalism is classical liberalism and directly opposed to socialism and what is mainstream left wing politics today.


I disagree. Many people (including Murray Rothbard) regard Adam Smith as a proto-Marxist.

In reality, the classic liberals had many different attitudes towards economics, depending on the individual. They were united against absolute monarchy.

Once the threat of absolute monarchy died down, the classic liberals began fighting amongst themselves for control of the new democratic world that they had created. This is what created modern conservatism, libertarianism, liberalism, Marxism ect.

Quote:
Conservatism varies by nation, here in the UK its the monarchy and the class system. This is what American conservatives rebelled against.


America's founding fathers were liberals.


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Fnord
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24 Jul 2018, 9:15 am

DarthMetaKnight wrote:
Fnord wrote:
A Conservative is a person who has just been robbed. A Liberal is a person who has just been arrested.
Not everyone changes their political beliefs at the drop of a hat.
You've never served on a jury, have you? ;)


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kraftiekortie
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24 Jul 2018, 9:17 am

I enjoyed "12 Angry Men."

I wish they would do a 2018 version, with all sorts of people serving.



thinkinginpictures
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24 Jul 2018, 9:32 am

Conservatism is the belief in traditional values, whatever they might be. It is a cultural concept, rather than an economic concept. If a nation and culture traditionally has held the belief that capitalism is good, conservatives would favor that position.

In-fact, the strongest opponents to free trade in the 18th and 19th century were the conservatives. They were in favor of protectionism.

Conservatism has to do with culture and traditions.

Liberals are, as the word implies... liberal. They believe in the liberty to choose one's own culture and adopt traditions that fits the individual.

Again, it has nothing to do with economics, although there are two main positions for Conservatives and Liberals:

While they both agree to the traditional workfare instead of welfare and the right to own property, Liberals and Conservatives differ, economically speaking, on the issues of free trade vs. protectionism. And that's about it.

On cultural issues however, like abortion, death penalty, press censorship etc. it is where Liberals and Conservatives really have their issues against each other. Liberals tend to favor free press, pro-abortion, anti-death penalty while Conservatives believe in religious laws, and so tend to be against abortion, pro-death penalty and pro-censorship.

I know that American definitions of Liberalism/Conservatism differs from european definitions, but I think you americans really have messed things up. In America, a "Liberal" is what you call a communist... in Europe you would never ever think of associating a liberal with the Soviet Union. Ever. Liberals are by definition anti-communist and anti-conformist.

While you can have liberal socialists (who believe in welfare and equality but also in free press etc.) as is common in Scandinavian countries, Classical Liberalism is about:

Culture:
* Anti-DP
* Pro-abortion.
* Free press
Other liberal (read: policies that increase liberty) issues.

Economics:
* Free trade
* No welfare
* Low taxes.

In America, you call those sorts of liberals "Libertarians" but in Europe, a Libertarian is closer to an anarchist (anarcho-capitalism) than Liberals.

Then you have the in-betweens like Social-Liberals (whom differ from liberal socialists) in that they believe in capitalism and free-market forces, but are willing to pay extra taxes to support welfare.

Socialists are a little more extreme, in that they want to abolish capitalism altogether, but most socialists in Scandinavian countries accept capitalism. They are Social-Democrats.

Social-Democrats are very much Conservative on cultural issues but centre-left on economics and welfare.

A Reactionary is a Conservative who wants to go back in time, to the time before the rise of political parties, a Reactionary is someone who is very close to Fascism.



Last edited by thinkinginpictures on 24 Jul 2018, 9:37 am, edited 2 times in total.

kraftiekortie
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24 Jul 2018, 9:35 am

A Reactionary is someone who just "reacts," rather than attempt to come up with solutions.



thinkinginpictures
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24 Jul 2018, 9:40 am

kraftiekortie wrote:
A Reactionary is someone who just "reacts," rather than attempt to come up with solutions.


I've always thought of reactionaries as an extreme form of conservatism. Like Trump vs. McCain. McCain is conservative, Trump is reactionary.



kraftiekortie
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24 Jul 2018, 9:42 am

McCain is the type who seeks to come up with solutions. I was considering voting for him against Obama, actually. He was a Prisoner of War, and I find him to be a really cool guy.

Trump just wails about "fake news" all the time. He just "reacts, reacts, reacts" via Twitter.



Magna
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24 Jul 2018, 11:24 am

The definitions in my OP would relate to government terminology in the U.S. since the definitions were quoted from a U.S. encyclopedia. I realize that there are differing definitions and the words meaning different things in different countries.

Reading that definition of Liberalism from that encyclopedia hit me like a lightening bolt:

"Liberalism: is a political belief based on a willingness to change ideas and policies to meet problems as they occur."

It's an absolutely brilliant political ideology to utilize for agenda or hidden agenda driven change and it bears repeating that it's perfectly suited to reverse engineer any desired outcome provided you can convince enough people that the "problem" at hand (either real, perceived or manufactured) warrants "change". The media has clearly been used as the arm to shape public opinion to whatever the end/ends may be.

Rham Emanuel (Obama's former Chief of Staff and current mayor of Chicago) illustrated the point very well when he said: "Never let a good crisis go to waste." The "crisis" being the "problem". reverse engineer the desired outcome from that in the form of law or laws and you've accomplished your goal.

It would be a Utopian Heaven on earth if "crises" and "problems" could not be manufactured, manipulated, exaggerated or otherwise represented untruthfully. However, since they can be, those in power that ascribe to such an ideology wield in it a terribly dangerous weapon of "change" being able to use it for their own gain at the overall detriment to society.

I would also argue, based on the definitions in the OP of Conservatism and Liberalism that between the two Liberalism would be the political ideology more effective at manipulating and controlling people.


_________________
"There is no love of living without despair of life." - Albert Camus

"Ain't nothing but a stranger in this world
I'm nothing but a stranger in this world" -Van Morrison

"Are you Bluish? You don't look Bluish."

AQ-43 (32-50 indicates a strong likelihood of Asperger syndrome or autism).
EQ-14 out of 80
Rdos: Your neurodiverse (Aspie) score: 173 of 200
Your neurotypical (non-autistic) score: 39 of 200
You are very likely neurodiverse (Aspie)