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DarthMetaKnight
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07 Aug 2018, 8:01 pm

Alright everyone. I need to release something that I have been bottling up for years due to the fear of being called a "crybaby" or whatever. Let's talk about men's issues.

Men have a higher suicide rate than women. That's a fact. In most countries, man can be drafted and women cannot. Men can be rape victims and abuse victims. That's also a fact, though many people like to deny this.

Some feminists have acknowledged these facts, but there are still many self-proclaimed feminists who scoff and make cruel, caustic penis size jokes whenever saner people mention men's issues. The crueler feminists are seldom called out on their bullshit … mostly because most people too disgusted to even speak to them.

Their most common argument is this: "Well … maybe men face discrimination … but women face more discrimination … so any discrimination that men face is irrelevant."

Today, I want to dismantle this argument once and for all so that it can never be used the shame male victims onto silence ever again.

Why is that argument invalid? Simple. It is just another version of the "first world problems" argument … which all feminists despise.

If you can say "Women face more discrimination than men, so men's issues don't matter." then I can just as easily say "Afghani women face more discrimination, so Western women need to shut up and stop being so sensitive." Same basic argument.

I already know that every response in this thread is going to be as harsh as possible. Go ahead. I've stopped caring.


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Twilightprincess
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07 Aug 2018, 8:07 pm

I’m a feminist, and I still care about men’s issues. I care about all victims of abuse. I was in abusive situations.

I think it’s unfair that there is stigma which prevents men from getting the help they need. I didn’t get help that I needed due to victim blaming so I can sort of relate.

This is an important issue and I hope it receives intelligent responses.



Last edited by Twilightprincess on 07 Aug 2018, 9:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Fnord
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07 Aug 2018, 8:10 pm

Yes, I'm familiar with that argument...

"Look! That child was born without legs! How dare you cry for having no shoes!"

"Poor kids are starving in <name of third-world country>! Now stop crying and eat those leftovers!

"So someone beat you up! Big, fat, hairy deal! People on chain gangs get beaten every day!

Yeah ... the old "Someone suffers more than you, so you're not suffering at all!" argument ... all men have heard it at least once in their lives. This is why we don't report our chest pains, our bloody stools, our constant nausea ... because someone else will always have it worse, and we have been  taught  brainwashed into believing that our pain and suffering don't matter to anyone, not even to those who "love" us.


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07 Aug 2018, 9:46 pm

All of that should suggest that modern 'victimhood' is a zero-sum game and without counterpoised oppressors the whole thing runs out of gas.

Part of the problem as far as I can tell with any of the activist movements over the last several decades, possibly since time immemorial, is that the most obnoxious idiots get the public attention and drift to the top while the people most insightful, even-keeled, and generally qualified to lead such movements productively leave either in disgust or lack of ability to relate anymore to what it becomes in short order.


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DarthMetaKnight
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07 Aug 2018, 10:18 pm

*whew* This thread went better than I anticipated. Thank you all.

When I was younger, I was fascinated by the "men's rights movement". I abandoned them when I realized that most of them are extremely right-wing.

I've noticed that some right-wingers have been talking about men's issues lately, but they damage the cause because they scare away non-white men, gay men, trans men and friendly women.

I once told my fundamentalist dad about men's issues. He claimed that Christianity was the solution to all of those problems, and he also claimed that feminism was a product of the "Satanic New World Order". That sort of insanity helps nobody.

I totally get why a lot of confused young men on 4chan and Reddit are turning to the "Kekistani" far-right. A lot these men are men who see very real social issues regarding the rights of men, and see far-right politics as the only solution.

If there ever was a successful men's liberation movement, I imagine that it would be centre-left and would have strong ties to the LGBT+ movement.

The extreme left is openly hostile to mankind, but the extreme right offers men false promises as well as false divisions.


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Chronos
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08 Aug 2018, 12:09 am

DarthMetaKnight wrote:
Alright everyone. I need to release something that I have been bottling up for years due to the fear of being called a "crybaby" or whatever. Let's talk about men's issues.

Men have a higher suicide rate than women. That's a fact. In most countries, man can be drafted and women cannot. Men can be rape victims and abuse victims. That's also a fact, though many people like to deny this.

Some feminists have acknowledged these facts, but there are still many self-proclaimed feminists who scoff and make cruel, caustic penis size jokes whenever saner people mention men's issues. The crueler feminists are seldom called out on their bullshit … mostly because most people too disgusted to even speak to them.

Their most common argument is this: "Well … maybe men face discrimination … but women face more discrimination … so any discrimination that men face is irrelevant."

Today, I want to dismantle this argument once and for all so that it can never be used the shame male victims onto silence ever again.

Why is that argument invalid? Simple. It is just another version of the "first world problems" argument … which all feminists despise.

If you can say "Women face more discrimination than men, so men's issues don't matter." then I can just as easily say "Afghani women face more discrimination, so Western women need to shut up and stop being so sensitive." Same basic argument.

I already know that every response in this thread is going to be as harsh as possible. Go ahead. I've stopped caring.


The problem is that many men who try to advocate for men's issues don't actually advocate for men's issues. They go in to women's forums and feminist spaces and try to derail conversations on women's issues, or they phrase everything with respect to women.

It's as if some of these guys see the issue of one of competition or from the perspective of "us or them".

Is it really relevant that men have a higher suicide rate than women? If 1 in 10 men commit suicide and only 1 in 20 women do, is it ok if 1 in 20 men commit suicide? Do we say "We are ok with that since the sexes commit suicide at the same rate now?" and stop there? I hope not. How about just saying "We need to find out what drives men to kill themselves and find a way to stop them from wanting to do so".

I would prefer to see more of an autonomous universal emphasis on male mental health than to measure it with respect to women. Women are a horrible measure of men's mental health because the two sexes tend to handle their emotions differently.

Of course sometimes comparisons are warrented though on some issues when there mat be unwarrented discrimination against men as a group.

I support men's rights and acknowledge men's issues but these issues need to be launched off their own platforms, not off of the backs of women's issues and particularly not in women's spaces or among feminists.



Last edited by Chronos on 08 Aug 2018, 12:44 am, edited 2 times in total.

Spooky_Mulder
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08 Aug 2018, 12:29 am

I'm excited about the Ruth Bader Ginsberg moving coming out - 'On The Basis Of Sex' - since Ruth realizes that the system is also saying men can't be nurturers which is sexist towards men. It's progressing feminism - women can work in an office - and men's rights, men can be great anywhere.



The_Face_of_Boo
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08 Aug 2018, 5:06 am

Chronos wrote:
DarthMetaKnight wrote:
Alright everyone. I need to release something that I have been bottling up for years due to the fear of being called a "crybaby" or whatever. Let's talk about men's issues.

Men have a higher suicide rate than women. That's a fact. In most countries, man can be drafted and women cannot. Men can be rape victims and abuse victims. That's also a fact, though many people like to deny this.

Some feminists have acknowledged these facts, but there are still many self-proclaimed feminists who scoff and make cruel, caustic penis size jokes whenever saner people mention men's issues. The crueler feminists are seldom called out on their bullshit … mostly because most people too disgusted to even speak to them.

Their most common argument is this: "Well … maybe men face discrimination … but women face more discrimination … so any discrimination that men face is irrelevant."

Today, I want to dismantle this argument once and for all so that it can never be used the shame male victims onto silence ever again.

Why is that argument invalid? Simple. It is just another version of the "first world problems" argument … which all feminists despise.

If you can say "Women face more discrimination than men, so men's issues don't matter." then I can just as easily say "Afghani women face more discrimination, so Western women need to shut up and stop being so sensitive." Same basic argument.

I already know that every response in this thread is going to be as harsh as possible. Go ahead. I've stopped caring.


The problem is that many men who try to advocate for men's issues don't actually advocate for men's issues. They go in to women's forums and feminist spaces and try to derail conversations on women's issues, or they phrase everything with respect to women.

It's as if some of these guys see the issue of one of competition or from the perspective of "us or them".

Is it really relevant that men have a higher suicide rate than women? If 1 in 10 men commit suicide and only 1 in 20 women do, is it ok if 1 in 20 men commit suicide? Do we say "We are ok with that since the sexes commit suicide at the same rate now?" and stop there? I hope not. How about just saying "We need to find out what drives men to kill themselves and find a way to stop them from wanting to do so".

I would prefer to see more of an autonomous universal emphasis on male mental health than to measure it with respect to women. Women are a horrible measure of men's mental health because the two sexes tend to handle their emotions differently.

Of course sometimes comparisons are warrented though on some issues when there mat be unwarrented discrimination against men as a group.

I support men's rights and acknowledge men's issues but these issues need to be launched off their own platforms, not off of the backs of women's issues and particularly not in women's spaces or among feminists.


Same for the dogmatic feminists, they spend their time criticizing MRAs.



Spiderpig
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08 Aug 2018, 6:19 am

And trying to shut down every single discussion about any difficulty related to women, even tangentially, that socially awkward men face, by strawmanning them as misogynists.


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08 Aug 2018, 6:34 am

Chronos wrote:
The problem is that many men who try to advocate for men's issues don't actually advocate for men's issues. They go in to women's forums and feminist spaces and try to derail conversations on women's issues, or they phrase everything with respect to women.

This speaks somewhat to my point above - ie. the obnoxious hijacking movements.

On a positive note I do have a feeling that, in the age of social media and long-form Youtube discussion, movements like the IDW will continue to happen and a lot of the high-quality sorts of people who feel they need to leave these movements due to the toxicity or the people who may be somewhere in academia, the medical or mental health fields, government policy, etc. who people may not even know exist, might be able to bring themselves out as the responsible parties who can get things done and have highly productive conversations that can bypass the circus. For as many problems as social media has seemed to create up front this might also be the solution half of what it offers.


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08 Aug 2018, 6:40 am

Or maybe there could be a movement advocating for both men's and women's issues, so both could be discussed freely without accusations of "hijacking".


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08 Aug 2018, 6:51 am

We could have a political centrist movement while we're at it too.

I think the trouble with selling moderation is it can't really sell itself - ie. there's nothing shiny or exciting about. It has to demonstrate its integrity in dealing with other issues and perhaps circumstantially be made up of moderates so that moderate stances are getting sold rather than moderation itself.


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Chronos
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08 Aug 2018, 7:35 am

The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
Chronos wrote:
DarthMetaKnight wrote:
Alright everyone. I need to release something that I have been bottling up for years due to the fear of being called a "crybaby" or whatever. Let's talk about men's issues.

Men have a higher suicide rate than women. That's a fact. In most countries, man can be drafted and women cannot. Men can be rape victims and abuse victims. That's also a fact, though many people like to deny this.

Some feminists have acknowledged these facts, but there are still many self-proclaimed feminists who scoff and make cruel, caustic penis size jokes whenever saner people mention men's issues. The crueler feminists are seldom called out on their bullshit … mostly because most people too disgusted to even speak to them.

Their most common argument is this: "Well … maybe men face discrimination … but women face more discrimination … so any discrimination that men face is irrelevant."

Today, I want to dismantle this argument once and for all so that it can never be used the shame male victims onto silence ever again.

Why is that argument invalid? Simple. It is just another version of the "first world problems" argument … which all feminists despise.

If you can say "Women face more discrimination than men, so men's issues don't matter." then I can just as easily say "Afghani women face more discrimination, so Western women need to shut up and stop being so sensitive." Same basic argument.

I already know that every response in this thread is going to be as harsh as possible. Go ahead. I've stopped caring.


The problem is that many men who try to advocate for men's issues don't actually advocate for men's issues. They go in to women's forums and feminist spaces and try to derail conversations on women's issues, or they phrase everything with respect to women.

It's as if some of these guys see the issue of one of competition or from the perspective of "us or them".

Is it really relevant that men have a higher suicide rate than women? If 1 in 10 men commit suicide and only 1 in 20 women do, is it ok if 1 in 20 men commit suicide? Do we say "We are ok with that since the sexes commit suicide at the same rate now?" and stop there? I hope not. How about just saying "We need to find out what drives men to kill themselves and find a way to stop them from wanting to do so".

I would prefer to see more of an autonomous universal emphasis on male mental health than to measure it with respect to women. Women are a horrible measure of men's mental health because the two sexes tend to handle their emotions differently.

Of course sometimes comparisons are warrented though on some issues when there mat be unwarrented discrimination against men as a group.

I support men's rights and acknowledge men's issues but these issues need to be launched off their own platforms, not off of the backs of women's issues and particularly not in women's spaces or among feminists.


Same for the dogmatic feminists, they spend their time criticizing MRAs.


I agree.



Twilightprincess
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08 Aug 2018, 7:43 am

I think that feminist extremists or male rights extremists may have had bad experiences with the opposite sex or have been raised by extremist parents. I do try to understand people with differing viewpoints.

It’s best when people are concerned about the rights of everyone. I have had experiences that align me more with feminism, but I’m interested in men’s issues and LGBT rights as well.

When a person has the experience(s) of being discriminated against, they should be considerate of the experiences of other people but that’s not always the case.

I’m really just thinking out loud here.



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08 Aug 2018, 8:22 am

There will be no true equality between the sexes until any man can walk into a divorce court, sit down, cross his legs, wink at the judge, and be awarded full custody of the children, all of the joint property, and 3/4s of his ex-wife's income for the rest of her life.


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