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techstepgenr8tion
SomeRandomGuy
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10 Aug 2018, 9:55 am

Closet Genious wrote:
Assuming we're still allowed to have an actual discussion, I'd like to post a very interesting debate regarding men's issues.



I got through the intro round at breakfast today and I don't know if I should be embarrassed, maybe it's a sign that I'm just not growing up, but mendacity still shocks and disgusts me and I saw it in spades the moment the guy right after Jordan started talking. Essentially pseudoscience = science I don't like the results of or science that doesn't match my feelings. One of the guys right after that then came in to blur it out with central tendency - ie. saying that people who are evolutionists have one outlook, that people are full tabula rasa social conditioning have another, and that they're both too rigid (which sounds great but it was completely off point in that it was addressing claims neither Jordan nor the other guy made).

I do wonder sometimes what it will take for objectivity to get high-hand on the pendulum with culture again. We need it to stay properly organized and keep debates going forward. Whether someone feels like its cruel for global warming to be a thing if God created the cosmos or people feel like such things as reflexive innate differences in gender (combinations of heredity, hormones, dispositional concern based on physiology, etc.) fly in the face of their pure egalitarian instincts - that's too bad, find some way to assimilate the facts you don't like, figure out what your bottom-line concerns actually are, and then find some way to reorient your concerns into useful action based on the facts that you have available. So long as our best and brightest are stuck arguing with people who take the salad-bar approach to facts I think our public policy will just get jammed. Feelings have a place but they're better served for goal orientation rather than dogmatically clinging to one means of getting there or another.


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XFilesGeek
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10 Aug 2018, 1:56 pm

Fnord wrote:
fluffysaurus wrote:
Men's problems--mostly caused by other men.
Evidence, please?
fluffysaurus wrote:
Women's problems--mostly caused by other women.
Evidence, please?
fluffysaurus wrote:
People use extreme examples of individuals of the opposite sex as examples of sexism but the pressure to conform comes primarily from within the sex ...
Evidence, please?


Assigning blame for disparities in gender equality is always a thorny issue.

For example, some feminists want to blame men for the pressure society puts on women to be pretty when I know for darned sure that women are just as guilty of tearing other women down for daring to be over-weight/frumpy/ect.


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10 Aug 2018, 2:06 pm

XFilesGeek wrote:
Fnord wrote:
fluffysaurus wrote:
Men's problems--mostly caused by other men.
Evidence, please?
fluffysaurus wrote:
Women's problems--mostly caused by other women.
Evidence, please?
fluffysaurus wrote:
People use extreme examples of individuals of the opposite sex as examples of sexism but the pressure to conform comes primarily from within the sex ...
Evidence, please?


Assigning blame for disparities in gender equality is always a thorny issue.

For example, some feminists want to blame men for the pressure society puts on women to be pretty when I know for darned sure that women are just as guilty of tearing other women down for daring to be over-weight/frumpy/ect.


I think there’s a lot of pressure put on men and women by society as a whole to live up to gendered expectations.

Young girls feel pressured to shave their legs to be attractive to boys (if they’re straight) and to avoid being teased by their friends who are girls.

There’s pressure to fit in and conform to typical “feminine” and “masculine” preconceptions coming from both women and men.



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10 Aug 2018, 2:18 pm

XFilesGeek wrote:
For example, some feminists want to blame men for the pressure society puts on women to be pretty when I know for darned sure that women are just as guilty of tearing other women down for daring to be over-weight/frumpy/ect.

I've always considered that how each gender competes for the opposite gender and what gets positive attention from the opposite gender tends to shape a lot of that. What's unfortunate is that it tends to be 'dog eats dog' competition within each gender (technically over who has the right to propagate into the future on their terms) which tends to turn the whole thing rather toxic and draconian.


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11 Aug 2018, 6:22 pm

Twilightprincess wrote:
XFilesGeek wrote:
Fnord wrote:
fluffysaurus wrote:
Men's problems--mostly caused by other men.
Evidence, please?
fluffysaurus wrote:
Women's problems--mostly caused by other women.
Evidence, please?
fluffysaurus wrote:
People use extreme examples of individuals of the opposite sex as examples of sexism but the pressure to conform comes primarily from within the sex ...
Evidence, please?
Assigning blame for disparities in gender equality is always a thorny issue. For example, some feminists want to blame men for the pressure society puts on women to be pretty when I know for darned sure that women are just as guilty of tearing other women down for daring to be over-weight/frumpy/ect.
I think there’s a lot of pressure put on men and women by society as a whole to live up to gendered expectations. Young girls feel pressured to shave their legs to be attractive to boys (if they’re straight) and to avoid being teased by their friends who are girls. There’s pressure to fit in and conform to typical “feminine” and “masculine” preconceptions coming from both women and men.
Where does the pressure to conform to artificial standards of beauty primarily come from? In my honest opinion, most of the pressure comes from within the mind of the girl feeling the pressure. While external pressures may be a significant factor, they are not put upon the girl as often and as much as the pressures she puts on herself.

Okay, so my experiences in this respect come only from being male ... but think about it. For maybe a few minutes out of the average work-day, I get bagged on about not being 'manly' for having more interest in science and science-fiction than a lot of men have in sports and sporting events. However, once those people go away, I am left to my own thoughts on the matter, which are usually "What the feck do they know" and not "I'm such a loser ... maybe I should hit the gym and learn more about sports".

Peer-pressure is a bad thing, while internal doubts and conflicts are even worse.


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11 Aug 2018, 6:29 pm

i guess i'm not a normal female human, i've only started wearing make up in my mid 20's (like 2 yrs ago ahaha) and even then i would go outside in my pyjamas and genuinely not give a crap. I also like to look good but for my own vanity or to fit into a theme (lately, K pop is influencing my style a lot!)

i could never relate to girls obsessing over their looks growing up. i was a massive tomboy and generally thought of myself as genderless. I always thought gender was stupid and a boring concept. I disagree with this now as there are some interesting stuff related to it, but i still think people are wayyyyyyy too obsessed about it.


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11 Aug 2018, 6:41 pm

Fnord wrote:
Twilightprincess wrote:
XFilesGeek wrote:
Fnord wrote:
fluffysaurus wrote:
Men's problems--mostly caused by other men.
Evidence, please?
fluffysaurus wrote:
Women's problems--mostly caused by other women.
Evidence, please?
fluffysaurus wrote:
People use extreme examples of individuals of the opposite sex as examples of sexism but the pressure to conform comes primarily from within the sex ...
Evidence, please?
Assigning blame for disparities in gender equality is always a thorny issue. For example, some feminists want to blame men for the pressure society puts on women to be pretty when I know for darned sure that women are just as guilty of tearing other women down for daring to be over-weight/frumpy/ect.
I think there’s a lot of pressure put on men and women by society as a whole to live up to gendered expectations. Young girls feel pressured to shave their legs to be attractive to boys (if they’re straight) and to avoid being teased by their friends who are girls. There’s pressure to fit in and conform to typical “feminine” and “masculine” preconceptions coming from both women and men.
Where does the pressure to conform to artificial standards of beauty primarily come from? In my honest opinion, most of the pressure comes from within the mind of the girl feeling the pressure. While external pressures may be a significant factor, they are not put upon the girl as often and as much as the pressures she puts on herself.

Okay, so my experiences in this respect come only from being male ... but think about it. For maybe a few minutes out of the average work-day, I get bagged on about not being 'manly' for having more interest in science and science-fiction than a lot of men have in sports and sporting events. However, once those people go away, I am left to my own thoughts on the matter, which are usually "What the feck do they know" and not "I'm such a loser ... maybe I should hit the gym and learn more about sports".

Peer-pressure is a bad thing, while internal doubts and conflicts are even worse.


I’m not saying you’re wrong, but I guess my response would be: where do the “internal doubts and conflicts” come from?

Societal pressure isn’t the same thing as peer pressure. It’s probably often more subtle than that. Maybe most young men and women want to conform to societal standards of gender that they see in the media or in the people they are surrounded by.

Most people don’t want to stand out and be different. Probably a lot of us on the spectrum don’t mind nonconformity as much as most.



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11 Aug 2018, 8:55 pm

Twilightprincess wrote:
... where do the "internal doubts and conflicts" come from? ... Maybe most young men and women want to conform to societal standards of gender that they see in the media or in the people they are surrounded by. Most people don’t want to stand out and be different. Probably a lot of us on the spectrum don’t mind nonconformity as much as most.
I think that you have answered your own question. Here's what I think happens:

People want to be "acceptable"; that is, they do not want to "stand out", be different, or seem weird. Those who perceive themselves as "unacceptable" feel anxiety and self-doubt. People feel anxious until they obtain or achieve what they believe will make them "acceptable". If they aren't "acceptable" no matter what they do, then self-doubt increases, and the cycle starts over.

Thus, we have boys and men getting involved in violence, risky behavior (athletics, drugs, stunts, et cetera), and promiscuity.

The only ways to break this cycle involve (a) accepting one's self, without regard to external influences; (b) eliminate the external influences; or (c) keep trying to improve one's self until there is no doubt as to one's acceptability.

Of course, this is way oversimplified, and probably way off-target; but I simply do not belief that external factors are solely to blame.


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12 Aug 2018, 2:17 pm

techstepgenr8tion wrote:
If it seems hypocritical that a woman can cut the girl's room line at the bar and use the men's room but a guy doing the reverse would get arrested or thrown out - women generally don't rape men in such situations, so be it.


We're not tabula rasa, men and women are different, and we have to be very careful not to let activism or push for equality, from the men's or women's issues side, attempt to run roughshod over what's actually happening. Sure, we should have venues to explore our potentials but we're most likely going to find that millions of years of largely bimodal evolution have more impact than our tautologies.

On the bathroom example; gay men have no trouble using restrooms with other men.

I'm not convinced this is a biological issue.



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12 Aug 2018, 2:20 pm

RushKing wrote:
On the bathroom example; gay men have no trouble using restrooms with other men.

I'm not convinced this is a biological issue.

Doesn't that example sort of self-eviscerate though? Gay men are men are on parity with other men in most of the areas of concern, hence there's no problem.


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12 Aug 2018, 2:23 pm

In my previous workplace, both genders use the same bathroom; but there was 3 stalls: On the right stall with a man sign (person sign), on the left a woman sign, and in the middle man AND woman sign ..... I was like jokingly "so...is that one for couples?", the HR lady thought I have a very dirty mind, she still does lol.



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13 Aug 2018, 8:35 am

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HQ2dJnVqd6g

A Greatest Men's Issue and Women's Issue are those now of both Characteristics who are afraid
to explore the Feminine and Masculine Balance of Living in terms of 'Divine' Feminine Grace and Love
in all the ways Balance comes in Bodily Way and the Social Empathic Side of Nature coming to be in both
Kind and Courage as a Wisdom of Life that moves connects and co-creates Freely to express that side of
Human Nature where Will and Strength Naturally Flow from a Mind and Body that comes to Do a Literal Free
Dance of Life and Song too without Fear as all Emotions and Senses Flow through a Mind and Body Balance of
Regulating Emotions and Integrating Senses in Peace and Harmony; yes, Bliss yes, Nirvana yes, what some folks
'Named' as the Kingdom of Heaven always within in this Generation now before folks invented a Myth After a Dirt
Nap. in other words, Humans have become slow per the literal meaning of 'Retarded' and not a Pejorative of what
Happens in all Existence Nature when use it or lose it is the Standard of all Existence as a Natural Rule of Life, still.

Where i go Dance Women are not afraid to exert their Will and Strength or the Dominance Side of 'I go get what
I want' in terms of 'Newer Older Age' Bootie Dances where Hips Rule over Males more Vulnerable Parts in what
otherWise might be a 'fight for sex'. In other Words their Bonobo Nature as far as Ancestral Cousins go comes
out as Women Come in Groups to Dance with others picking out Single Males as the Pick of their Litter come to
be in a Culture of 'Bill Clinton Hook-ups' where a Woman using a Clothed Male for a Masturbatory tool in
Public is now less taboo than a Kiss on the Dance Floor and Mutual Hug of Embrace in Emotional
Connection. Bottom Line they get what they want; no Messy Sex; no Disease; no Pregnancy and
Whatever may be left at Home to take care of on their own. Humans are resourceful when
they are not afraid to Help themselves out without worrying so much over what other folks
think about them in the crowd. And true, not everyone is a Nomad like this; some folks are just
Plain Scared of Change as that is the Nature of Being Human too. The Best News though is Change
Through Environmental Challenge and Adaptation and Lord Knows even the Potential to unpack Genetic
Material per our DNA and be Literally and Humanly Transformed like a Dr. Jekyll make-over to a Good Cop
Mr. Hyde now; or per the Example of the Old Movie with Jerry Lewis where he changes over to Buddy Love.
Yes, these are fictions but they do relate to literal Human Potentials too that some folks come to realize as
Butterflies coming out of Cocoons. The Epigenetic Affect and Effect is no Myth Science Proves it is really real.

Seriously, you have to find a way that works for you. I still find it humorous that I was a Shut-in in my Bedroom
with 19 Medical Disorders in a Life Threatening Synergy Combo for 66 Months from age 47 through 53 and
now at 58 after 9717 Miles of Public Dance starting at age 53 to this day Yesterday, I am also literally and
empirically measured as Twice as strong moving from a Quarter of a Ton Leg Press to a Half a ton 52 reps
during the course of that same Dance; a Free Dance freely expressing both 'Divine' Feminine Elements in
Grace and Love with a Non-Verbal Expression of Free-Ballet; along with Martial Arts Free Style
Elements in non-Verbal Language of Will and Strength and sure potential Dominance and Self-
Defense if need be too but really who is gonna mess with a Dude Standing over 6 Feet tall
who literally looks like he Floats on Terrestrial Land now at 240LBS; and yes i've documented
all of this in Case-Study Evidence for what my potential came to be changing over from so-called
Nerd recognized mostly as the Fearless Alpha Male these Days; even by some males in Public along
with High Fives from Young Women with you are Awesome Dude; and yes the rather Forceful Bootie
Dances some of those Young Women Bring to someone old enough to be Their Grandfather now as
I gently Block my more Vulnerable parts with my Leg as that works fine enough for them too for what they
want in life now.

In other words, some of the Male and Female Issues one has may be Fear of expressing both the Feminine
and Masculine Sides of Nature as even 'the Famous Jordan Peterson' Admits Alpha Males have an Odd James
Bond way of Cool Grace too with nothing else to truly Prove once a Real Free Dance and Song of Life come to Play.

True; in Real Life no one would mess with a real James Bond too; hehe, except for the Women and I have 2000
photos for the Proof of that with Smiles of Dance from ear to ear; keeping in mind that I was the Boy in School
too that folks Spit on and Called me the F word and not Fred, too. I didn't give up then and that was the Lesson
for 66 Months in Earth Hell then; and the reward is rather Simple and True in Light too; it's Heaven now
and by all empirical means I prove all the Secrets of my Success in Real Time Documentation too.

A Greatest Rule of Nature that Works is Balance; be the Water as both Lao Tzu and Bruce Lee says.

Some things always change while they never change as change that works and if one 'thinks'
that's 'Word Salad'; it 'just means' one doesn't have A ConTexT for Heaven now that really works.

And yes; I cannot 'tale' a lie; all of this dark and light would have been amazingly Harder If i did not
start that whole endeavor Financially Independent away from any worries over Basic Subsistence,
Including Food, Shelter and at least a Wife and two Folks in my Family who still showed me Love.

It's True it's Hard to rise up to the Capstone of the Pyramid of Self-Actualization in Maslow ways
of Transcending and Ascending to the top of Maslow's Pyramid and Fowler's Stages of Faith too
in Pyramid Faith to the top of Agape Love For all if one is still stuck at the Bottom of the Pyramid
without enough Fish in the Creek to Catch and eat; where it is not too Cold and one Will die without
enough clothes. No Doubt for those who understand the Value of both Human Potential and what
it takes to do it with Challenge and Adaptation in Blood Sweat and Tears, a Basic Universal Income
to Lift Folks out of the Basement Level of Life could work but no; not for folks who don't believe they
are a Butterfly just waiting to come out of a Cocoon; to do what they never imagined would be their life next;
Like the Matrix Movies Generally "MetaphoRinG" at the Very end when the Oracle Summarize the Whole Movie
with two words, "I Believed". If one Doesn't Believe, Relatively Speaking with Will, they've already failed in my
Life Experience at least for Damn sure out of Hell that's real into Heaven that is "even more real"
to Quote Jordan Peterson too as those critics of him made fun for him saying that some
experiences of life are more real than others. True; some experiences of Life now For
Real are 'More Colors' of Over the Rainbow now at Peace and Harmony for Living Real More.

And to be clear, I disagree with Much of What Jordan Peterson Says but when it comes to the
so-called 'Meta-Physical' he has just what his Target Audience needs and Oh God So much more..;)

Oh yeah, and I did write the Longest Long Form Poem and my Personal Style of a Bible in the
Same Span of Dates at 6 Million Words as Empirically Measured and documented of course in
'real time' too but that was sort of a Side Effect of the Dance of Life in Song; and yes as the empirical
Evidence Shows Women really do Love Poets too in a way of respect that has no measure still in Heaven now.

Butt in terms of Literal Numbers of Happy Women excited by the Male Art of Dance; 2000 Photos of Smiles in
Selfies in Bliss of Joy speak Literal Volumes more than Words will ever do; and just in case you think i am pulling
Your Legs; here is just once example out of 2000. If I had one word of advice to give; it would be Dance;
no, three, too; Believe in You. It's True I was A Nerd before I danced but not unlike A Napoleon Dynamite
Dance it F in Works; as far as Women go at least in Volumes and Volumes of Photographic evidence.

https://katiemiafrederick.files.wordpre ... g_7486.jpg


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