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Do you agree or disagree with the claims made in the first post of this thread?
Totally Agree! 14%  14%  [ 1 ]
Mostly Agree. 14%  14%  [ 1 ]
Half Agree / Half Disagree. 14%  14%  [ 1 ]
Mostly Disagree. 43%  43%  [ 3 ]
Totally Disagree. 14%  14%  [ 1 ]
Total votes : 7

Fnord
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15 Aug 2018, 10:12 am

While perusing some manuscripts that had been set aside for archiving, I encountered this little gem. It seems that the author had a firm grasp on the concept of leadership, as well as what the word 'charismatic' really means.

CHARISMATIC LEADERS

To sociologists, "charismatic" refers not to the personal qualities of a leader, but to the ways the leader justifies his or her rule. The term was introduced about a century ago by a German sociologist named Max Weber, who used it to ask these questions:

1. "Why does a ruler have the right to boss other people around?"

2. "How does a ruler justify his or her authority?"

Most rulers legitimate their rule through law or precedent. They say, "I was legally elected to my post and the Constitution gives me this power", or "I am the King and according to our ancient traditions the King can do [whatever]". In such cases, the ruler observes (or pretends to observe) implicit or explicit rules that were laid down by others. Even if he holds enormous power, he recognizes that he is not above the law or above tradition.

Charismatic governments are different. They don't use constitutions or ancient precedent to legitimate their rule. (They probably couldn't do so anyway, since they likely seized power.) So charismatic governments justify their rule in far cruder terms. They say, "We're great people! Wonderful people! Everybody knows this! And because we're great, you should believe us and do what we say!"

Of course, their arguments tend to be a lot more elaborate. They may claim to be the Revolutionary Vanguard of the Proletariat, selflessly creating a classless society, or say they were Chosen by God to rule His people. Others will stress their unique genius, claiming to know all the answers to the nation's problems. Many will claim to be morally pure, unlike the greedy politicians they sent to the firing squads. Despite their different positions, though, all of them can be considered charismatic leaders.

Here are some examples of charismatic and non-charismatic leaders from recent history:

Charismatic Leaders:
• Oliver Cromwell
• Napoleon Bonaparte
• Vladimir I. Lenin
• Benito Mussolini
• Adolf Hitler
• Charles de Gaulle
• Juan Perón
• Mao Zedong
• Gamal Nasser
• Fidel Castro
• Augusto Pinochet
• Muammar Qaddafi
• Mobutu Sese Soko
• Donald J. Trump

Non-Charismatic Leaders:
• Charles II
• Thomas Jefferson
• Woodrow Wilson
• Emperor Hirohito
• Franklin D. Roosevelt
• Winston Churchill
• Harry Truman
• Nikita Khrushchev
• Golda Meier
• John F. Kennedy
• Salvadore Allende
• Margaret Thatcher
• Mikhail Gorbachev
• Barack Obama


Do you agree or disagree with the preceding claims? Explain, please?



kraftiekortie
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15 Aug 2018, 10:28 am

For the reasons which you stated, I've never trusted "charismatic" people of all stripes.



Magna
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15 Aug 2018, 10:28 am

I'm not sure I can answer based on the definitions. According to what you've stated here:

"Charismatic governments are different. They don't use constitutions or ancient precedent to legitimate their rule. "

and

"They may claim to be the Revolutionary Vanguard of the Proletariat, selflessly creating a classless society"

Shouldn't Obama be on the charismatic list? I don't have time to research, but I thought Obama issued more executive orders in his terms as president than any previous president had? Issuing executive orders, regardless of who is president is governing by executive fiat rather than by law, no? And "Hope and Change" speaking to the second of your quote excerpts I isolated above.


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Last edited by Magna on 15 Aug 2018, 10:37 am, edited 1 time in total.

kraftiekortie
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15 Aug 2018, 10:31 am

Obama is an interesting case, actually.

He is a pretty decent speaker---and he does "call and response" type things reminiscent of the "charismatic" sort of leader.

I might place him on the "charismatic" side----but one who is relatively more benevolent than those other folks.



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15 Aug 2018, 10:50 am

Are you people going to select a poll option?



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15 Aug 2018, 10:55 am

I did....but it didn't "take" the first time for some reason.



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15 Aug 2018, 1:20 pm

Going by the classical definition of "charismatic" I wouldn't call Trump charismatic at all - a new poll found around 60% of the people in the US hate who Trump is as a person. Obama, on the other hand, many people who didn't agree with him politically often at least said he was an excellent statesman and that he carried himself with dignity.

Hell, I hate Richard Spencer and see him as Nazi slime, but I would say he is more charismatic than Trump. His views are more extreme and he could be a lot more dangerous than Trump, but he doesn't act like a redneck.

This is why many people are more scared of Pence than they are of Trump. They're the same in many ways, just Pence is the more charismatic version since he comes off as normal and educated rather than like an ogre.



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15 Aug 2018, 3:12 pm

I disagree, for a few reasons;

1 - The term "charismatic" is not clearly defined; it just immediately constructs its own sense of what this term means and then goes on to explain how it's bad.

2. There's no single criterion for defining who is and is not "charismatic". Kennedy wasn't charismatic? Obama? How are they quantifying this?

3. There are a lot on the uncharismatic list I at best dislike and at worst detest, for example, Thatcher and Churchill.

4. Probably the most prominent for me, I don't even entirely understand what this is meant to convey or suggest. Is it implying that uncharismatic leaders are good? That charisma is wholly evil or corrupt? What if the claims that charismatic leaders make are correct and not just hollow promises?


There's no numeration or quantifiable factor that can prove or disprove what is said, it just seems to claim it baselessly. There's no statistics, no hard permutations or comparable variables. In other words, it essentially feels like a runaway thought.



Magna
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15 Aug 2018, 3:20 pm

Mythos wrote:
I disagree, for a few reasons;

1 - The term "charismatic" is not clearly defined; it just immediately constructs its own sense of what this term means and then goes on to explain how it's bad.

2. There's no single criterion for defining who is and is not "charismatic". Kennedy wasn't charismatic? Obama? How are they quantifying this?

3. There are a lot on the uncharismatic list I at best dislike and at worst detest, for example, Thatcher and Churchill.

4. Probably the most prominent for me, I don't even entirely understand what this is meant to convey or suggest. Is it implying that uncharismatic leaders are good? That charisma is wholly evil or corrupt? What if the claims that charismatic leaders make are correct and not just hollow promises?


There's no numeration or quantifiable factor that can prove or disprove what is said, it just seems to claim it baselessly. There's no statistics, no hard permutations or comparable variables. In other words, it essentially feels like a runaway thought.


Every point you've made here is why I was not able to answer a poll question.


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18 Aug 2018, 12:04 am

Though I disagree with your definition, I will also take it into consideration with what I say below.

I am certain Barack H. Obama, John F. Kennedy, Franklin D. Roosevelt, Harry S. Truman, and T. Woodrow Wilson were charismatic. I wouldn't say President Donald J. Trump is charismatic. In this, I am referring to their ability to address the nation and how the nation receives it, as well as taking some light consideration of your definitions provided.

For appearance in East Asia, I wouldn't say that Obama was charismatic. Trump, on the other hand, has certainly displayed a good amount of charisma in East Asia. Going to disregard the others due to lack of knowledge.

Now, going into your definitions, I would say almost every POTUS, starting with Abraham Lincoln, has been charismatic. Almost all of them have violated the United States constitution and disregarded rule of law, to various degrees. These violations would start to become very bad beginning with Herbert C. Hoover. So, that said, all those individuals that I listed, they would still be charismatic. Here's the order I would put them in, from most to least: Franklin D. Roosevelt, Barack H. Obama, John F. Kennedy, Harry S. Truman, President Donald J. Trump, and T. Woodrow Wilson.


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18 Aug 2018, 8:55 am

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=op5FxEs1aR0

While a Science of Charisma including a Sociologist View of it as far as Objectifying it in a Systemizing
way is interesting; one doesn't have to 'know' Charisma when they see it for they immediately feel and
sense it if they have that Common Sense and Feel Ability to be moved in Emotions and Senses by 'the
Muse' that and who brings it as in the Virtue/Vice of Charisma.

Could be a Pair of Legs like the ones my wife owns;
Could be just a Smile like the one my wife owns;
Doesn't have to be preplanned in any way of Systemizing Science;
Bottom line is Charisma Moves the Senses and Feelings in another Person to Action.

And in this Way Charismatic Folks are Natural Born Leaders particularly if they give a Crap about Controlling
the Emotions and Senses of other Folks when they move them to their Particular 'Colors of an Agenda' as
Politicians do do in every way so-called 'Politicians' come in Life from President to CEO to Sales Person
to the Charming Dude or Dudette who only wants 'one or two or three' things from you and even more.

As far as the Origin of the Word Charisma that's not hard to locate with a Wiki Search as it comes
from the Greek of Grace as 'Spiritual Gift' that is in deed special for it is that 'certain something'
that wakes the Muse of Emotions and Senses in others in a call to Action that Creates Results.

As in all things life light and dark there is Positive and Negative Charisma as Positive Charisma
Largely Gives for Free just for the Essence and Joy of Feeling and Sensing Charisma for the
one who brings this Free Muse to the Table of Life for others; and Yes, Sadly there
is 'Trump Charisma' as a 'wonderful' open Case Study of Negative Charisma
that takes For the individual lacking empathy sympathy and compassion; oh
God Yes for the individual lacking the overall State of Being called Love where there
is Malignant Emptiness Within always attempting to rise up to feel and sense something, anything
at all by moving other folks around on Puppet Strings like a Twelve String Guitar of Ignorance that
can't seem to see further much than Skin Deep of the Puppeteer Dark 'Joker' Muse who stands in
Front of them even totally Naked not attempting to hide that they control your heart strings and you
will do just what Dark Muse of Charisma Moves you to do as you are under their 'alMost' Hypnotic Spell
of Charisma and true some folks are totally immune to this effect as not even a Professional Hypnotist
can Hypnotize me and obviously about 30 Percent of the Population are highly susceptible to being
almost totally controlled by the Dark Muse of Charisma now; Fascinating and extremely SAD it still is.

Yes, it's definitely True that Charisma is largely non-verbal and Fearless too. No Doubt as a Publicly assessed
Dance Legend after i finally Shed my Asperger Dr. Jekyll clothes that my Dance is extremely Charismatic
to the Female Audience as many Driving Bootie Dances coming at the Front Parts of me and getting
Spanked rather roughly fully clothed on the Buttocks and Chest by a 21 year old Beautiful Blonde
does still indicate on Thursday Night. Sure; Being a Happily Married man if I was/am a Trump
Dark Muse I Might attempt to do an After Dance Cash-in as such on the Muse I bring all Natural
to 'that Demographic' of the Dance Audience as such but you see I have a much more powerful Muse
than that of the most Basic of Physical Lust; I am Love and Love Trumps Lust as the Highest Human Force
of all. The Good Cop Version of Jesus as a Spiritual Leader is an excellent example of a Good Cop Charismatic
Leader and the other Version in the New Testament by original Greek Definition of Charisma as a Grace of
Spiritual Gift is also taken literally in terms of Hating your Mother and Father and the Relatives and Friends
if they don't do what I tell you like hating the Folks on CNN who aren't afraid of exposing the lies of Dark
Muse i bring to you.

This is nothing new and 'Weber' is basically old news and new news too. Almost No one looks at Charisma that way
that's more of a Systemizing View of what Charisma even is as the Emotional and Sensory Spirit; name it Secular
or so-called Religious; at Essence Charisma is the Human Muse that and who Muses others through Emotions
and Senses to Take Action; Positive or Negative. True, 'we' need more Supermen and or Women who
use Love more than the metaphor of 'guns' in all the ways Humans Become Tools over the
Highest Force of Love when used to give for the benefit of others rather than take away
the benefits that come from a Charisma of Free Love. I never expect anything from the Female
Audience when i Dance for i already am filled to the brim and overflowing with the Charisma of Positive
Love that does move me now as the empirical evidence most definitely suggests in 9740 Miles of Public
Dance in 5 Years and 6 Million Words of Free Verse Poetry in the similar span of Dates along with 2000 or
so Autographed Photo Selfies with over 2000 Beautiful Joy Full Mused Dancing Women of what i bring all free to them
still with the core of what Charisma even means as muse of Dance in Non-Verbal way that moves the Village to action
as whole still too. Yes that's a FAct; Dance was and still is the First Human Language in all the Non-Verbal Ways Dance
still comes as Charisma to move Human Nature. And as far as the Numbers go there is no Delusion of Grandeur in F in
FActs. And the other Fact is people who are actually Charismatic understand Charisma better than those who aren't
by the Evidence at hand of course too in all the ways that comes particularly in the Political Environment we live now.

Oh yeah and as another Cultural and Fictional Example in the Movie 'Saturday Night' Fever way back in '78 when i
Graduated from High School; John Travolta Presented a Very Charismatic and Powerful Example of the most Basic of
Human Charisma as Dance Legend then. A Woman wanted more from him but he stood solid on his Principles
as a 'Good Cop Catholic Boy' then while his 3 Friends took turns with her in the Back Seat of their Car
Back then. 'Only thing' is He derided her as a 'Catholic Slut' not understanding what her issues were of
emptiness Deep Below her Lust. Sure; it's easy to Be A Jesus in a Monastery somewhere up in a
Mountain with a Bunch of other Dudes in a Temple or a Shaolin Monk in a Monastery too.
Do it on a Dance Floor and still refrain from 'the Temptation' when Beautiful Women are
doing you clothed with their Butt and then i'll believe 'You are A Jesus too' as just
a Metaphor of Course and of course that's just one example of many more
in entirely different contexts of what integrity and honor and loyalty
and Truth in Light Character even means as the State and Nation
of Being incarnate Love now as
Muse with
Charisma too;
And just another Reminder
the Religious context of this
is Directly on Topic per the
Original Greek Charisma Definition as Grace
of the Spiritual Gift of Charisma still born on as Human dates.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CemLiSI5ox8


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18 Aug 2018, 12:08 pm

The validity of the leader's claims does not matter what does is the ability to get a lot of people who follow the leader because they are in awe of his or her persona.

So Kennedy was a charismatic leader and so is Trump because while he does not fit the stereotype of a charismatic leader(handsome, great speaker etc) at all as he said himself if he murdered someone on 5th Ave his fans would still be loyal. I have seen nothing to disprove this and plenty of evidence to prove this. Trumps approval ratings among Republicans voters is second only to George Bush after 9/11


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