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Tequila
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18 Aug 2018, 3:42 pm

Prometheus18 wrote:
There is a fundamental difference between to - say - wear a brimmed hat because this, as a mature adult, marks oneself out as part of a broader social milieu, as was the case in the west until the 1960s and, on the other hand to be forced to wear a brimmed hat by legal mandate, as was the case in Ataturks Turkey of the 1910s.


Wear one if you like. There's no problem with that.

Prometheus18 wrote:
Never, to my knowledge, has a dress code ever been enforced in Europe or North America by legal mandate.


Niqab bans? Not a dress code, but a ban nevertheless.

Prometheus18 wrote:
But the power of custom as dictated by the COMMUNITY is not coercive in nature.


Of course it's coercive in nature if it's demanded! If it's just the done thing, that's alright. It depends what demanded means. Do those people consent to the demands? Is there lawful resistance to this demand? Think of the people who go naked in public for instance.

Prometheus18 wrote:
I also don't believe that our modern ethical code is individualist, for reasons stated above, although it may represent itself as such.


It is individualistic. You can more or less do what you want. Society is ordered but I think it's about as good as we're going to get it - unless, of course, there are other ways. In which case, please enlighten me?

Prometheus18 wrote:
Because consumption is the only thing, generally speaking, that contemporary people are capable of being passionate about.


This comes across as bigoted. I'm a contemporary person yet I hold very traditional interests too. My favourite beer is mild, the films I like are obscure macaroni westerns and Italian poliziotteschi movies. I like old England, but I live in the modern world. I like new trends. I love to see things innovate and develop. I try to keep up to date with things.

Prometheus18 wrote:
Or at any rate things proximately connected with consumption.


I love being a consumer. There are so many different things to try out. If I like it (in as far as is reasonable), I buy them. If I like them, I buy them again. If I don't, I don't.

Prometheus18 wrote:
I still believe that classical liberalism - tempered by a welfare state and restrictions on economic power is the best system.


We agree.

Prometheus18 wrote:
1. The idea that consumers are rational actors.


Some are, some aren't. People go with the best information they have available to them. The main point about consumers is that often they are not really well-informed enough to make the best decision, but that's not really a problem. Often people don't have all day to go and intimately research certain subjects.

Prometheus18 wrote:
This is an especially irresistible one as a result of the observer bias of the fact that those who are educated/intelligent enough to be studying economics are likely to at least consider themselves highly rational.


I haven't properly studied economics. I know who the major economists are, and I used to read the blogs of economists, but it has to be rather simple for me to understand.

Prometheus18 wrote:
JS Mill could not possibly have foreseen that in the 20th century there would emerge advertising industries whose sole purpose was to manipulate people into buying things that they don't need, voting for politicians who despise them and dictating the nature of their value system.


I don't take notice of advertising. I analyse the product - if I like it, I like it. If I don't, I don't.

Prometheus18 wrote:
2. The idea that monopolies as such are impossible under conditions of perfect competition. Now this may well be true in a certain sense, and yet the proposition tacitly assumes that such a thing as perfect competition is POSSIBLE. This is mistaken. Perfect competition is an idealisation.


Life isn't perfect.

Prometheus18 wrote:
Just as the Pythagoras theorem is only true of an idealised triangle and cannot be true of any PHYSICAL triangle (insofar as, at very least, there will always be minute deviations in its structure, if only at the atomic level), the perfect competition hypothesis can only ever be very closely realised by a real economy.


I do not understand this.



Chronos
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18 Aug 2018, 3:54 pm

We can talk about philosophy and economics, anthropology, quantum physics and geometry if you like, but I find personally that these days I would rather focus on small, everyday things that bring me joy and that improve the quality of my life. I might have a snack in a minute.



Tequila
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18 Aug 2018, 3:56 pm

Chronos wrote:
I might have a snack in a minute.


What will you be snacking on? Is it good? If so, please post photo(s)!



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18 Aug 2018, 4:03 pm

Tequila wrote:
Chronos wrote:
I might have a snack in a minute.


What will you be snacking on? Is it good? If so, please post photo(s)!


I haven't decided yet. Hopefully it will be good.



Prometheus18
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18 Aug 2018, 4:52 pm

Tequila wrote:
Niqab bans? Not a dress code, but a ban nevertheless.


This is purely negative; the law has never stipulated what one positively MUST wear. That's what I meant.


Tequila wrote:

Of course it's coercive in nature if it's demanded!


That's precisely what I was saying above. No positive dress code or other tradition, with a few marginal exceptions, ever has been demanded in such a way that the one of whom it was demanded couldn't have chosen to ignore that demand. That is to say, not with the force of law. The deconstructionists were tilting at windmills insofar as if they disapproved of the customs of their elders, they needn't have followed those customs - nor did they. And yet the lie that hereditary traditions are oppressive of the individual as such caused the generation of 68 the positive evil of losing their birthright of the body of inherited wisdom and knowledge, which has led directly to the corrosion of ethical values which is destroying our society.

You might believe that people are capable of being good without the instruction of their elders, and yet as evidence that you are mistaken, I offer you the world in which that proposition has been accepted. Individuals are capable of being good upon their own initiative, although very rarely; the empirical evidence indicates that this is insufficient to provide for a moral SOCIETY.


Tequila wrote:

It is individualistic. You can more or less do what you want. Society is ordered but I think it's about as good as we're going to get it - unless, of course, there are other ways. In which case, please enlighten me?


It isn't individualistic because eccentrics are still scorned - just as much as in the Victorian era. With the emergence of social media, eccentricity can be rooted out more efficiently than at any time in history. As an Aspergers person, you will quite possibly have seen this yourself.

Tequila wrote:

I love being a consumer. There are so many different things to try out. If I like it (in as far as is reasonable), I buy them. If I like them, I buy them again. If I don't, I don't.



If this is true, then you're sufficiently rational. The overwhelming majority of consumers are not, however. This is proved by the fact that in the US, the average man is something like ten thousand dollars in debt. I imagine the figures in the UK are only slightly better. It couldn't be otherwise; the whole education system is designed to make people good consumers, rather than good people.



Tequila wrote:
Some are, some aren't. People go with the best information they have available to them. The main point about consumers is that often they are not really well-informed enough to make the best decision, but that's not really a problem. Often people don't have all day to go and intimately research certain subjects.


People are engineered into making irrational economic decisions using sophisticated psychological techniques, the research into which is a multi billion dollar industry; techniques about which nobody other than a few psychology graduates know of. That's the purpose of advertising. Edward Burnays realised the power of these ideas on the 1920s.




Tequila wrote:

I don't take notice of advertising. I analyse the product - if I like it, I like it. If I don't, I don't.



You're in a small minority there.



Tequila wrote:

I do not understand this.


If you don't understand Pythagoras, there are some good tutorials on the Khan Academy website.



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18 Aug 2018, 4:59 pm

LoneLoyalWolf wrote:
Welcome Prometheus18!

Often, I feel like I was born in the wrong time. Going outside, seeing people on their phone all the time, their often superficial and selfish behavior is bothersome.

Was visiting my doctor recently and a woman with a baby carriage came in, and I always stand up to open the door for them, as any person should do in my opinion. This time the waiting room was full and I decided to watch if someone would do the same. The woman was struggling with the door, and nobody did anything. An incredibly heavy glass door. I stood up and helped her. Even got mean looks from people, like I was doing something wrong :roll: . Funny thing, when I had to go home, the little girl in the carriage looked at me and raised her hands towards me and called out to me "Daddy!" A rather cute moment.

I am seeing things like this often. Old people dropping their groceries on accident and people are just looking at how the person is gathering their groceries. Makes me sick. I always help.

Last bad thing I witnessed was a young girl falling off her bike quite hard, and I was incredibly startled and asked if she was okay. Very nervous and almost crying, she told me she was fine and went inside the store. Nobody even looked when she fell, and there were many people around. Nobody seemed to care. Makes me sad. Later, she came out of the store and looked at me nervously and seemed too scared to look me in the eyes. Think she was a bit embarrassed. I smiled at her when she looked at me when she stepped on her bike and drove off. She smiled back and blushed.

Also like old furniture, which is just better quality, in my opinion. Everything old always seems to have more attention to detail and more love put into it.

My grandfather said I was born in the wrong age, a loyal knight, quite the compliment. He always called women Milady, and I now do that as well after he passed away, in his honor.

Hope you enjoy the forum.


Thanks for your kind words.



Tequila
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18 Aug 2018, 5:03 pm

Prometheus18 wrote:
This is purely negative; the law has never stipulated what one positively MUST wear. That's what I meant.


A 1571 Act of Parliament to stimulate domestic wool consumption and general trade decreed that on Sundays and holidays all males over six years of age, except for the nobility and persons of degree, were to wear woollen caps on pain of a fine of three shillings and four pennies (3s. 4d.) per day.

Prometheus18 wrote:
That's precisely what I was saying above.


You positively did not. You said the opposite!

Prometheus18 wrote:
You might believe that people are capable of being good without the instruction of their elders, and yet as evidence that you are mistaken, I offer you the world in which that proposition has been accepted. Individuals are capable of being good upon their own initiative, although very rarely; the empirical evidence indicates that this is insufficient to provide for a moral SOCIETY.


It's not about being good - it's about not breaking the law.

Prometheus18 wrote:
It isn't individualistic because eccentrics are still scorned


I don't feel scorned - I feel loved. Not scorned. At worst I'm tolerated, but that's because I do inappropriate things.

Prometheus18 wrote:
With the emergence of social media, eccentricity can be rooted out more efficiently than at any time in history.


I cannot be bothered debating with Facebook idiots.

Prometheus18 wrote:
If this is true, then you're sufficiently rational. The overwhelming majority of consumers are not, however. This is proved by the fact that in the US, the average man is something like ten thousand dollars in debt. I imagine the figures in the UK are only slightly better. It couldn't be otherwise; the whole education system is designed to make people good consumers, rather than good people.


I owe £0.

Prometheus18 wrote:
People are engineered into making irrational economic decisions using sophisticated psychological techniques, the research into which is a multi billion dollar industry; techniques about which nobody other than a few psychology graduates know of. That's the purpose of advertising. Edward Burnays realised the power of these ideas on the 1920s.


Again, I buy unusual things - I'm quite discriminating. For instance, I think Pepsi Max is the work of Satan and I don't know how anyone can drink it. It's brute force all the way. Coca-Cola is OK, as is regular Pepsi.



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18 Aug 2018, 5:05 pm

Sorry to get on your case but have you investigated the testcard/light music/TV startup marches?



Hyeokgeose
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19 Aug 2018, 12:35 am

Prometheus18 wrote:
I was diagnosed with Asperger's six years ago. To be honest, the more time has passed, the more I have become convinced that rather than suffering from a disorder, I'm just eccentric. This is mostly manifest in my being extremely old fashioned, as the title states.

I only started using the internet after many years' hiatus earlier this year. The most recent TV show I think anything other than awful is the X Files. I insist on wearing a suit, tie, braces and brimmed hat every day, despite being an unemployed student in my twenties. I only listen to classical music (with the exception of a few of the more wholesome pieces from the 70s and earlier. I hate facial hair (especially stubble). I sometimes smoke a pipe.

I feel as though I would be an anachronism in any time later than the 1970s. I watch original episodes of The Twilight Zone and Alfred Hitchcock Presents from the 1950s and think that was the last decade when I should have felt at ease with the world.

Most of all, I despise the superficiality, narcissism and egoism of the present age. I have never found anyone that I even remotely like. Does anyone else feel this way, or know someone who does? I can't think of one thing I like about our present world, and it's getting gradually worse.

I wouldn't say it's a disorder, even though it's called Autism Spectrum Disorder; I think of it more like a unique personality, because to me, that's really what it is. Just looks like a disorder to others because we're unique. :P

I like a lot of old things too, the only thing I don't like to be anachronistic is my computer. Otherwise I really like the old shaving blades, cars, older way of life such as the manners of the time and excitement that came from the 1950s. When I graduate, I want to get some good old 1950s formal wear and one day buy a car kit. Love listening to 50s music in my car.
But I suppose I personally am not very anachronistic, I use modern telescopes, my reenactment kit is made out of modern stainless steel using modern methods (referring to my medieval kit); but, to some extent, I think I get it. I don't know if you've seen this, but it might interest you:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N9fI40Nni3k
Neat fellow in my opinion, really keeping history alive and living a lifestyle that he greatly appreciates.


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10 July, 1975 - 21 August, 2018.


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19 Aug 2018, 8:31 am

Hyeokgeose wrote:
I wouldn't say it's a disorder, even though it's called Autism Spectrum Disorder; I think of it more like a unique personality, because to me, that's really what it is. Just looks like a disorder to others because we're unique. :P

I like a lot of old things too, the only thing I don't like to be anachronistic is my computer. Otherwise I really like the old shaving blades, cars, older way of life such as the manners of the time and excitement that came from the 1950s. When I graduate, I want to get some good old 1950s formal wear and one day buy a car kit. Love listening to 50s music in my car.
But I suppose I personally am not very anachronistic, I use modern telescopes, my reenactment kit is made out of modern stainless steel using modern methods (referring to my medieval kit); but, to some extent, I think I get it. I don't know if you've seen this, but it might interest you:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N9fI40Nni3k
Neat fellow in my opinion, really keeping history alive and living a lifestyle that he greatly appreciates.


I loved the video. Thanks for sharing.



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22 Aug 2018, 2:22 am

Prometheus18 wrote:
I was diagnosed with Asperger's six years ago. To be honest, the more time has passed, the more I have become convinced that rather than suffering from a disorder, I'm just eccentric. This is mostly manifest in my being extremely old fashioned, as the title states.

I only started using the internet after many years' hiatus earlier this year. The most recent TV show I think anything other than awful is the X Files. I insist on wearing a suit, tie, braces and brimmed hat every day, despite being an unemployed student in my twenties. I only listen to classical music (with the exception of a few of the more wholesome pieces from the 70s and earlier. I hate facial hair (especially stubble). I sometimes smoke a pipe.

I feel as though I would be an anachronism in any time later than the 1970s. I watch original episodes of The Twilight Zone and Alfred Hitchcock Presents from the 1950s and think that was the last decade when I should have felt at ease with the world.

Most of all, I despise the superficiality, narcissism and egoism of the present age. I have never found anyone that I even remotely like. Does anyone else feel this way, or know someone who does? I can't think of one thing I like about our present world, and it's getting gradually worse.


Have you ever considered becoming a butler? I've heard that that can be a really good, steady job for the right person.



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04 Sep 2018, 1:34 pm

Late welcome. Your posts are interesting, and quite unlike any I've seen from your demographic (1990s Millennials). While I'm not quite as conservative as you, I'm definitely more conservative than most.


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04 Sep 2018, 2:27 pm

kdm1984 wrote:
Late welcome. Your posts are interesting, and quite unlike any I've seen from your demographic (1990s Millennials).


I know. This is what terrifies me. To be honest, I'd go even further and stretch the timeframe back to the 80s or 70s, perhaps even further still.

To be quite honest, I'd say you too are the only person I've met on here so far, of any age, who's on my wavelength. This past week or two, when tempted to give up on humankind and become a hermit (my perpetual temptation!) I've actually told myself that with people like you around (albeit on the other side of the world) there's still hope.



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05 Sep 2018, 12:41 am

Tequila wrote:
Prometheus18 wrote:
Pythagoras theorem is only true of an idealised triangle and cannot be true of any PHYSICAL triangle (insofar as, at very least, there will always be minute deviations in its structure, if only at the atomic level), the perfect competition hypothesis can only ever be very closely realised by a real economy.


I do not understand this.


Pythagoras' theorem, also known as the Pythagorean Theorem states thar the sum of the squares of the legs (sides) of any right triangle is equal to the square of the hypotenuse (diagonal). Mathematically stated as a^2 + b^2 = h^2. Given two of the values, one can use algebra to find the third value, making it useful to find the lengths of either a leg or the hypotenuse and derive information as to the angle of the hypotenuse with respect to the legs.

Prometheus had stated that this theorem is only true for an idealized triangle and not a physical triangle and what he meant by this is, at the atomic level, the dimensions of an actual object are always fluctuating.

But I would like to point out that does not mean that the theorem is not true. The theorem still holds because it is not concerned with these fluctuations in space time. Lack of precise measurements does not translate to lack of accuracy of the theorem. The theorem will give an accurate output per any input. The output may simply not represent the dimension of the respective side of the triangle at a later point in time. Additionally, while typically not practical to measure, the Heisenberg uncertainty principal states that we can know the dimensions of a physical triangle precisely, we just can't simultaneously know it's velocity as a frustrated student hurls it through the air.



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05 Sep 2018, 4:47 am

Chronos wrote:

Prometheus had stated that this theorem is only true for an idealized triangle and not a physical triangle and what he meant by this is, at the atomic level, the dimensions of an actual object are always fluctuating.

But I would like to point out that does not mean that the theorem is not true. The theorem still holds because it is not concerned with these fluctuations in space time. Lack of precise measurements does not translate to lack of accuracy of the theorem. The theorem will give an accurate output per any input. The output may simply not represent the dimension of the respective side of the triangle at a later point in time. Additionally, while typically not practical to measure, the Heisenberg uncertainty principal states that we can know the dimensions of a physical triangle precisely, we just can't simultaneously know it's velocity as a frustrated student hurls it through the air.


Of course the the theorem is true, at least in a Euclidean metric. What I meant was that no physical triangle can ever BE a real triangle because of the fluctuations you mention. The theorem is true, but only of an idealised Platonic form of a triangle. Of course physical triangles can be a very good approximation to this ideal, but they can never reach it.