What's the political climate like in the UK right now?

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climber9
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10 Sep 2019, 3:11 am

Biscuitman wrote:
climber9 wrote:
All that can be said about the will of the people is that we should leave the EU


I know it's inconvenient, but do you not see the majority of people voting in the 2017GE for parties who ruled out no deal as people expressing any kind of will?



It might be inconvenient, but consider the position of people who would prefer to leave the EU with a deal but would leave without one if the alternative was not leaving at all. Whose manifesto truly represented their views at the last GE? Only UKIP, and because of the way our electoral system works a vote for minority parties is a wasted vote. Such people would have opted for one of the mainstream parties who promised to respect the referendum result, even if that promise carried a rider about ‘no deal’.

As I said before, I think that the issue of Brexit is too important to be decided by the chaos of a GE.

GE’s are fought on a range of issues, of which Brexit would only be one. But whereas the other issues are about how we, as a country, do things, Brexit is about whether the very idea of doing anything ‘as a country’ continues to mean anything or whether we become part of a much larger organisation, a federal Europe.

How is a committed environmentalist who also happens to be a Leaver to vote in a GE? Opting for the Green Party could be seen as endorsing ignoring the referendum result. Opting for the Brexit Party could be seen as a betrayal of their green principles.



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10 Sep 2019, 3:25 am

climber9 wrote:
GE’s are fought on a range of issues, of which Brexit would only be one


agree, and I think if we do have another GE (which is likely before the end of 2019 imo) we will see it, at least from Labour's povm focussed on many other issues aside from Brexit. I think after 9 years austerity it would actually suit them to try and make out that Brexit is almost a side issue to other more important things that need sorting out in this country



climber9
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10 Sep 2019, 7:57 am

In the long term [i.e. ten years or more] I’m not sure that there is any issue more important than Brexit.

Issues like housing, education, health and unemployment dominate domestic politics, and rightly so, since they play such a big part in the lives of so many people. But if we stay within the EU we will increasingly lose control over most of these issues as more and more power is concentrated in Brussels. The EU will give no more weight to the problem of unemployment in Port Talbot than it will give to unemployment in Resita in Romania or Aglona in Latvia. And why should it?

The trend of the European movement over the last thirty years or so has unquestionably been towards federalisation. There is now a single de facto head of state, a single executive, and a single parliament whose legislation takes priority over national assemblies. There is a central bank with a single currency, and no internal borders. The EU has its own flag and its own anthem, which is referred to as being ‘the anthem of a country’. EU politicians have spoken at the UN with the same status as Greek or German legislators. Senior EU politicians have called for a unified foreign policy, a unified asylum policy, a common minimum wage, the establishment of ‘European citizenship’, a common military, a common law enforcement agency and shared educational and professional qualifications.

There are many organisations and individuals [including, of course, most MEP’s] who openly advocate full federalisation by 2025.

The question on the referendum paper should have been ‘Do you wish Britain to become part of a United Europe?’.



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10 Sep 2019, 11:01 am

Biscuitman wrote:
JohnPowell wrote:
Biscuitman wrote:
climber9 wrote:
Without the name calling…

1. Boris Johnson is trying to implement the will of the people, as defined by the largest democratic vote in UK history.
2. A majority of MP’s oppose him, despite having stood for election on a manifesto which promised to respect the referendum result.
3. Those same MP’s refuse to submit to an election at which voters could endorse or reject their actions.


1. it wasn't the largest democratic vote in UK history, that is just Conservative Party propaganda. Take a look at the 1992 GE for instance.

can you define what you consider to be the 'will of the people' around no deal?.

2. 54% of voters in the 2017 GE voted for parties which ruled out leaving the EU with no deal. Seems a pretty good barometer of what the will of the people is around leaving with a no deal brexit anyway. Feels fairly democratic for MP's to stick to that.

3. MP's already did that once and it resolved nothing, if anything it just made the situation more complicated. The Fixed Term Parliament Act means that Parliament decides when a GE happens and not the PM. It is not designed to help a PM get out of a whole that he has dug. If the majority of MP's feel they don't want a GE then so be it, that is democracy.


Interesting you're repeating propaganda slogans from Femi who seems to be funded by dodgy people.

Around 85% voted for parties that said they would respect the result of the referendum and leave the Single Market and the Customs union. The only way to do that is leaving without a deal. So that debunks that tripe. MP's voted to trigger Article 50 so that debunks the rest of the tripe.


what on earth is Femi?

Triggering A50 didn't determine the final destination, there are many options open to us. The leave campaign famously promised the nation 'the exact same benefits as we already had' and Vote Leave were so adamant that we would not have a no deal situation that they put in writing that they would not even trigger A50 until they had a deal in place. The public were then asked what type of brexit they wanted by way of a GE and the majority of voters said no to no deal.

Sounds like the people expressing some kind of will to me


Yes it did, it meant we would leave with or without a deal after 2 years. And watch the video i posted to cut through that tripe.
Na, I just debunked that nonsense so no need to repeat it. People just voted for Labour and Conservatives like they would have done despite Brexit as both parties promised to leave the institutions of the EU. We now know the only way to do that is leaving without a deal as the EU are run by psychopaths.


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10 Sep 2019, 11:09 am

Biscuitman wrote:

what on earth is Femi?


Femi Oluwole is a political activist and co-founder of the pro-European Union advocacy group


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10 Sep 2019, 11:21 am

Does he have a job?

"The group’s homepage admits that “OFOC is powered by: Best for Britain, Open Britain, The European Movement, and the GCG [Grassroots Co-ordination Group]”, all large established pro-Remain groups, predominantly funded by Tory, Liberal and former Labour donors. The GCG is chaired by Chuka Umunna MP, a known Corbyn-critic.

They share office space with six anti-Brexit groups; Best for Britain, Open Britain, European Movement, Britain for Europe, Scientists for EU, Healthier IN and InFacts that have been brought together by Umunna’s GCG"


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10 Sep 2019, 11:31 am

JohnPowell wrote:
Does he have a job?



He quit his job in Vienna back in Jan 2018 to 'stop Brexit'

Femi wrote:
For the record, Plan: Year in Vienna internship getting legitimate as f**k then come back like Daenerys on her f*****g dragons to sort this country out


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JohnPowell
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10 Sep 2019, 3:22 pm

How noble of him!


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10 Sep 2019, 3:28 pm

JohnPowell wrote:
Biscuitman wrote:
JohnPowell wrote:
Biscuitman wrote:
climber9 wrote:
Without the name calling…

1. Boris Johnson is trying to implement the will of the people, as defined by the largest democratic vote in UK history.
2. A majority of MP’s oppose him, despite having stood for election on a manifesto which promised to respect the referendum result.
3. Those same MP’s refuse to submit to an election at which voters could endorse or reject their actions.


1. it wasn't the largest democratic vote in UK history, that is just Conservative Party propaganda. Take a look at the 1992 GE for instance.

can you define what you consider to be the 'will of the people' around no deal?.

2. 54% of voters in the 2017 GE voted for parties which ruled out leaving the EU with no deal. Seems a pretty good barometer of what the will of the people is around leaving with a no deal brexit anyway. Feels fairly democratic for MP's to stick to that.

3. MP's already did that once and it resolved nothing, if anything it just made the situation more complicated. The Fixed Term Parliament Act means that Parliament decides when a GE happens and not the PM. It is not designed to help a PM get out of a whole that he has dug. If the majority of MP's feel they don't want a GE then so be it, that is democracy.


Interesting you're repeating propaganda slogans from Femi who seems to be funded by dodgy people.

Around 85% voted for parties that said they would respect the result of the referendum and leave the Single Market and the Customs union. The only way to do that is leaving without a deal. So that debunks that tripe. MP's voted to trigger Article 50 so that debunks the rest of the tripe.


what on earth is Femi?

Triggering A50 didn't determine the final destination, there are many options open to us. The leave campaign famously promised the nation 'the exact same benefits as we already had' and Vote Leave were so adamant that we would not have a no deal situation that they put in writing that they would not even trigger A50 until they had a deal in place. The public were then asked what type of brexit they wanted by way of a GE and the majority of voters said no to no deal.

Sounds like the people expressing some kind of will to me


People just voted for Labour and Conservatives like they would have done despite Brexit.


Yet you just used your 85% stat from the GE around Brexit :lol:



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10 Sep 2019, 3:48 pm

Just to debunk the 54% nonsense. I admit that the election became pretty much about Corbyn and how terrible May was. But the next election will be all about one issue.


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Biscuitman
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11 Sep 2019, 4:41 am

you holding an opinion on something doesn't mean you have 'debunked' any other opinion on it :lol:



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11 Sep 2019, 4:42 am

"Boris Johnson’s suspension of the UK Parliament is unlawful, Scotland’s highest civil court has ruled"

oh my.

All eyes on the Supreme Court on Tuesday I guess. Will be explosive if they also rule in the same way as it would mean the Govt had advised the Queen to act unlawfully.



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11 Sep 2019, 7:31 am

Biscuitman wrote:
you holding an opinion on something doesn't mean you have 'debunked' any other opinion on it :lol:


You don't understand the difference between opinions and facts.


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11 Sep 2019, 7:55 am

we are all allowed opinions, but facts are facts, and you keep mixing up the 2, calling people who think differently to you names, then announcing you have debunked people.

calm down, we are all allowed to form our own opinions. but you need to remember that we are not allowed to form our own 'facts'. As long as we use that as a baseline then everything else from there is great



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11 Sep 2019, 11:31 am

I didn't call you anything. Stop lying.

Like how you used the exact phrase I used to you on the other thread. I'm done with your trolling.


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