27 Aug 2018, 12:09 am
ASPartOfMe wrote:
thoughtbeast wrote:
ASPartOfMe wrote:
thoughtbeast wrote:
Quote:
We do honor traitors who gave aid and comfort to the enemy during wartime
Jane Fonda to receive lifetime achievement award at film festival
It should be noted she was awarded an Oscar after she sat on anti-aircraft guns used to shoot down American planes. She is now an in demand actress at age 80.
Jane Fonda to receive lifetime achievement award at film festival
It should be noted she was awarded an Oscar after she sat on anti-aircraft guns used to shoot down American planes. She is now an in demand actress at age 80.
No.
"We" did not honor Jane Fonda.
A private committee honored Jane Fonda.
But when a confederate statue emblematic of southern slavery is erected by perps on public property that belongs to all, then, yes, "We" are being forced to honor it against our will.
Major difference.
“We” honor Fonda by making her movies popular. I would argue that an Oscar unfortunatly is in general a much more well known honor then some memorial.
“We” did put those statues up in the sense that elected officials allow the statues to be put on public property. If the public don’t like it they can and in some cases are electing officials to take them down. If statue supporters do not like them bieng taken down they can elect officials that will rebuild them and agree to pay taxes for the 24/7 security needed to defend them. What went down at UNC is that some people made a decision for “we” ie. mob rule.
Yep.
Just like some people made a decision for "we", i.e. what you call mob rule, here:
Pictured: Damaged official state property known as the Berlin Wall, November 1989.
A vandal? Mob rule? Boo hoo!
Tear down this wall and tear down these treasonous monuments to race hatred!
The Berlin Wall was not a monument to dead people so there is no comparison.
Be careful what for what wish for. "Anarchy in the U.S.A." ie mob rule won't be fun, especially if the mobs turn on those weird offensive autistic people, those "criminal" black people or whatever whim the mobs decide offends them.
1. "The Berlin Wall was not a monument to dead people so there is no comparison."
I fail to see the relevance of the Berlin Wall being a "monument to dead people" or not. Tearing something down is tearing something down, whether it's a monument to dead people or not. It seems to me that you're dodging the issue, which is whether "the people" (whomever you own that to be) have the right to tear down egregiously offensive displays on public property.
2. The ACLU does not approve of such offensive displays on public property. And neither do I.
Remove Symbols That Celebrate the Confederacy and Slavery
Quote:
This is the website of the American Civil Liberties Union.
Learn more about the American Civil Liberties Union and its affiliated organization, the American Civil Liberties Union Foundation.
Learn more about the American Civil Liberties Union and its affiliated organization, the American Civil Liberties Union Foundation.
And the ACLU has endorsed the campaign of Colors of Change in opposition to such displays.
Colors of Change supports the use of nonviolent direct action against confederate memorials on public property.
Drop charges against Bree Newsome for taking down the Confederate flag at South Carolina capitol
To refer to such activities as representing "mob rule" is an absurdity in light of how these offensive "memorials" were imposed on public property in the first place.
Here's the history of the "Silent Sam" statue:
Scholars Explain The Racist History Of UNC's Silent Sam Statue
Quote:
"A number of historians have shown that powerful white Southerners were creating a revisionist narrative of the Confederacy as a protector of states' rights, Southern homes, and white Southern women in this period," Standish points out. These new narratives ignored slavery as the cause of the war, and contributed instead to the "Jim Crow regime, which was responsible for the disenfranchisement and murder of black Southerners," Standish explains...
UNC Classics Professor Jim O'Hara has also been active in understanding the history of Silent Sam and in petitioning the University administration to remove the statue. He tells me that, while Julian Carr's racist speech is well known at this point, "less well known is what the United Daughters of the Confederacy were doing in 1913." Specifically, in the same year that Silent Sam was dedicated, the UDC "unanimously endorsed and promoted for use in schools a history of the KKK that praised the heroic work they did to preserve white supremacy. So putting up these statues was unambiguously part of the white supremacist movement of the Jim Crow era." Standish concurs, further noting that "these woman had racial and class privilege that allowed them - through the Silent Sam statue - to shape how all people enter and experience UNC's campus."
UNC Classics Professor Jim O'Hara has also been active in understanding the history of Silent Sam and in petitioning the University administration to remove the statue. He tells me that, while Julian Carr's racist speech is well known at this point, "less well known is what the United Daughters of the Confederacy were doing in 1913." Specifically, in the same year that Silent Sam was dedicated, the UDC "unanimously endorsed and promoted for use in schools a history of the KKK that praised the heroic work they did to preserve white supremacy. So putting up these statues was unambiguously part of the white supremacist movement of the Jim Crow era." Standish concurs, further noting that "these woman had racial and class privilege that allowed them - through the Silent Sam statue - to shape how all people enter and experience UNC's campus."
It's a complete permanent mobocracy to shape in racism how the descendants of black slaves should enter and experience activities on their public property. And it is the right of the people to alter or abolish it. Get rid of those monstrosities or others will get rid of it for you.
27 Aug 2018, 12:25 am
ASPartOfMe wrote:
7 Arrested at University of North Carolina in Clashes Over ‘Silent Sam’
Quote:
Seven people were arrested on Saturday at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill as tensions between demonstrators intensified over the toppling this week of the “Silent Sam” statue, which stood for over a century on campus grounds as a symbol of the Confederacy.
University officials had warned students on Friday about the possibility of more protests, writing in a message to students, “We urge you not to attend.” But on Saturday, packs of demonstrators supportive of the monument’s removal clashed with protesters advocating its preservation. Some demonstrators carried signs condemning racism; others had draped themselves in Confederate flags.
Of the arrests made on Saturday, two were connected with charges of assault, destruction of property and inciting a riot, Carly Miller, a spokeswoman for the university, said in a statement.
Three other arrests were in connection with assault, Ms. Miller said. The remaining two arrests were related to destruction of property and resisting an officer.
None of the people arrested on Saturday were affiliated with the university, Carol L. Folt, the university chancellor, told reporters.
At one point, some demonstrators tried to light a Confederate flag on fire until the police intervened, according to video from The Daily Tar Heel, the university’s student newspaper.
On Thursday night, the university’s police force filed charges against three people in connection with the toppling of the monument.
Randy Young, a spokesman for the university’s police force, said on Friday that additional charges might be filed against people involved in the demonstration on Monday.
The statue, unveiled in 1913 with support from the United Daughters of the Confederacy, depicts a Confederate soldier grasping a rifle. The soldier is considered “silent” because he has no ammunition to fire his weapon.
The university has indicated in the past that it favors removing the statue for safety reasons, but U.N.C. officials have said a 2015 state law prohibits them from doing so. According to the law, state-owned monuments cannot be removed or altered in any way without the approval of the North Carolina Historical Commission.
Two days after the demonstration, the commission rejected a request to remove three Confederate monuments from the State Capitol in Raleigh.
While some university leaders and Republican state lawmakers have condemned the demolition of the “Silent Sam” statue, the university has not disclosed any plan to reinstall it.
According to the 2015 law, any monument that is “temporarily relocated” must be returned to its original place within 90 days of “completion of the project that required its temporary removal.” Dr. Folt told reporters on Saturday that it was too early to know where the statue would end up, although she mentioned the possibility of moving it to another location.
University officials had warned students on Friday about the possibility of more protests, writing in a message to students, “We urge you not to attend.” But on Saturday, packs of demonstrators supportive of the monument’s removal clashed with protesters advocating its preservation. Some demonstrators carried signs condemning racism; others had draped themselves in Confederate flags.
Of the arrests made on Saturday, two were connected with charges of assault, destruction of property and inciting a riot, Carly Miller, a spokeswoman for the university, said in a statement.
Three other arrests were in connection with assault, Ms. Miller said. The remaining two arrests were related to destruction of property and resisting an officer.
None of the people arrested on Saturday were affiliated with the university, Carol L. Folt, the university chancellor, told reporters.
At one point, some demonstrators tried to light a Confederate flag on fire until the police intervened, according to video from The Daily Tar Heel, the university’s student newspaper.
On Thursday night, the university’s police force filed charges against three people in connection with the toppling of the monument.
Randy Young, a spokesman for the university’s police force, said on Friday that additional charges might be filed against people involved in the demonstration on Monday.
The statue, unveiled in 1913 with support from the United Daughters of the Confederacy, depicts a Confederate soldier grasping a rifle. The soldier is considered “silent” because he has no ammunition to fire his weapon.
The university has indicated in the past that it favors removing the statue for safety reasons, but U.N.C. officials have said a 2015 state law prohibits them from doing so. According to the law, state-owned monuments cannot be removed or altered in any way without the approval of the North Carolina Historical Commission.
Two days after the demonstration, the commission rejected a request to remove three Confederate monuments from the State Capitol in Raleigh.
While some university leaders and Republican state lawmakers have condemned the demolition of the “Silent Sam” statue, the university has not disclosed any plan to reinstall it.
According to the 2015 law, any monument that is “temporarily relocated” must be returned to its original place within 90 days of “completion of the project that required its temporary removal.” Dr. Folt told reporters on Saturday that it was too early to know where the statue would end up, although she mentioned the possibility of moving it to another location.
Private property Durham book shop defaced with Silent Sam graffiti
Quote:
A Durham bookstore was defaced with graffiti that referenced a Confederate monument that protesters tore down earlier this past week in Chapel Hill.
Photos of The Regulator Bookshop surfaced on social media showing white lettering that read “Sam was silent. We aren’t” and “Marxists get out.”
The graffiti comes less than a week after protesters toppled Silent Sam, which prompted the statue’s supporters and counter-protesters to gather on the UNC Chapel Hill campus for a demonstration Saturday. Nearly a dozen people have been arrested in connection with Silent Sam protests and rallies since Monday.
A tweet from the Ninth Street Watch, a blog that focuses on Durham’s Ninth Street, said the graffiti happened Saturday night.
Photos of The Regulator Bookshop surfaced on social media showing white lettering that read “Sam was silent. We aren’t” and “Marxists get out.”
The graffiti comes less than a week after protesters toppled Silent Sam, which prompted the statue’s supporters and counter-protesters to gather on the UNC Chapel Hill campus for a demonstration Saturday. Nearly a dozen people have been arrested in connection with Silent Sam protests and rallies since Monday.
A tweet from the Ninth Street Watch, a blog that focuses on Durham’s Ninth Street, said the graffiti happened Saturday night.
The Regulator Bookshop, a store in Durham, was defaced with graffiti referencing Silent Sam, the controversial Confederate monument on UNC Chapel Hill’s campus that protesters tore down on Monday, Aug. 20, 2018. Ninth Street Watch
27 Aug 2018, 12:43 am
...To repeat myself, THERE ARE RECENT-YEARS IMOOSED LAWS IN MANY SIUTHERN STATES - including NC -THAT KEEP LOCALITIES FRO.M MOVING THE STATUES, EVEN IF SAID LOCALITIES WANT TO MIVE THEM! This makes " going through the systen " to move them poi ess, and obviously build up the resentment leading to the iconiclastic acts! 
_________________
Renal kidney failure, congestive heart failure, COPD. Can't really get up from a floor position unhelped anymore:-(.
One of the walking wounded ~ SMASHED DOWN by life and age, now prevented from even expressing myself! SOB.
" Oh, no! First you have to PROVE you deserve to go away to college! " ~ My mother, 1978 (the heyday of Andy Gibb and Player). I would still like to go.
My life destroyed by Thorazine and Mellaril - and rape - and the Psychiatric/Industrial Complex. SOB:-(! !! !! !! !! !! !! !! !! !!
ASPartOfMe
Veteran
Joined: 25 Aug 2013
Age: 66
Gender: Male
Posts: 34,476
Location: Long Island, New York
27 Aug 2018, 2:34 am
thoughtbeast wrote:
ASPartOfMe wrote:
thoughtbeast wrote:
ASPartOfMe wrote:
thoughtbeast wrote:
Quote:
We do honor traitors who gave aid and comfort to the enemy during wartime
Jane Fonda to receive lifetime achievement award at film festival
It should be noted she was awarded an Oscar after she sat on anti-aircraft guns used to shoot down American planes. She is now an in demand actress at age 80.
Jane Fonda to receive lifetime achievement award at film festival
It should be noted she was awarded an Oscar after she sat on anti-aircraft guns used to shoot down American planes. She is now an in demand actress at age 80.
No.
"We" did not honor Jane Fonda.
A private committee honored Jane Fonda.
But when a confederate statue emblematic of southern slavery is erected by perps on public property that belongs to all, then, yes, "We" are being forced to honor it against our will.
Major difference.
“We” honor Fonda by making her movies popular. I would argue that an Oscar unfortunatly is in general a much more well known honor then some memorial.
“We” did put those statues up in the sense that elected officials allow the statues to be put on public property. If the public don’t like it they can and in some cases are electing officials to take them down. If statue supporters do not like them bieng taken down they can elect officials that will rebuild them and agree to pay taxes for the 24/7 security needed to defend them. What went down at UNC is that some people made a decision for “we” ie. mob rule.
Yep.
Just like some people made a decision for "we", i.e. what you call mob rule, here:
Pictured: Damaged official state property known as the Berlin Wall, November 1989.
A vandal? Mob rule? Boo hoo!
Tear down this wall and tear down these treasonous monuments to race hatred!
The Berlin Wall was not a monument to dead people so there is no comparison.
Be careful what for what wish for. "Anarchy in the U.S.A." ie mob rule won't be fun, especially if the mobs turn on those weird offensive autistic people, those "criminal" black people or whatever whim the mobs decide offends them.
1. "The Berlin Wall was not a monument to dead people so there is no comparison."
I fail to see the relevance of the Berlin Wall being a "monument to dead people" or not. Tearing something down is tearing something down, whether it's a monument to dead people or not. It seems to me that you're dodging the issue, which is whether "the people" (whomever you own that to be) have the right to tear down egregiously offensive displays on public property.
2. The ACLU does not approve of such offensive displays on public property. And neither do I.
Remove Symbols That Celebrate the Confederacy and Slavery
Quote:
This is the website of the American Civil Liberties Union.
Learn more about the American Civil Liberties Union and its affiliated organization, the American Civil Liberties Union Foundation.
Learn more about the American Civil Liberties Union and its affiliated organization, the American Civil Liberties Union Foundation.
And the ACLU has endorsed the campaign of Colors of Change in opposition to such displays.
Colors of Change supports the use of nonviolent direct action against confederate memorials on public property.
Drop charges against Bree Newsome for taking down the Confederate flag at South Carolina capitol
To refer to such activities as representing "mob rule" is an absurdity in light of how these offensive "memorials" were imposed on public property in the first place.
Here's the history of the "Silent Sam" statue:
Scholars Explain The Racist History Of UNC's Silent Sam Statue
Quote:
"A number of historians have shown that powerful white Southerners were creating a revisionist narrative of the Confederacy as a protector of states' rights, Southern homes, and white Southern women in this period," Standish points out. These new narratives ignored slavery as the cause of the war, and contributed instead to the "Jim Crow regime, which was responsible for the disenfranchisement and murder of black Southerners," Standish explains...
UNC Classics Professor Jim O'Hara has also been active in understanding the history of Silent Sam and in petitioning the University administration to remove the statue. He tells me that, while Julian Carr's racist speech is well known at this point, "less well known is what the United Daughters of the Confederacy were doing in 1913." Specifically, in the same year that Silent Sam was dedicated, the UDC "unanimously endorsed and promoted for use in schools a history of the KKK that praised the heroic work they did to preserve white supremacy. So putting up these statues was unambiguously part of the white supremacist movement of the Jim Crow era." Standish concurs, further noting that "these woman had racial and class privilege that allowed them - through the Silent Sam statue - to shape how all people enter and experience UNC's campus."
UNC Classics Professor Jim O'Hara has also been active in understanding the history of Silent Sam and in petitioning the University administration to remove the statue. He tells me that, while Julian Carr's racist speech is well known at this point, "less well known is what the United Daughters of the Confederacy were doing in 1913." Specifically, in the same year that Silent Sam was dedicated, the UDC "unanimously endorsed and promoted for use in schools a history of the KKK that praised the heroic work they did to preserve white supremacy. So putting up these statues was unambiguously part of the white supremacist movement of the Jim Crow era." Standish concurs, further noting that "these woman had racial and class privilege that allowed them - through the Silent Sam statue - to shape how all people enter and experience UNC's campus."
It's a complete permanent mobocracy to shape in racism how the descendants of black slaves should enter and experience activities on their public property. And it is the right of the people to alter or abolish it. Get rid of those monstrosities or others will get rid of it for you.
There are 2 issues the cause and mob rule.
Mob rule is mob rule. This does not change because the cause is righteous so yes tearing down the Berlin Wall was mob rule.
1. When the East German government announced open Borders the point of the Berlin wall was moot
2. Related to number 1 there was never a danger the tearing down of the Berlin wall was going to result in tearing down anything the mob thought was offensive. It was not part of a campaign to label everybody who was fighting in war racist, or to curb free speech and expression, therefore the mob rule did not spread beyond that. The "activists" in America are using symbols of racism to label everything they find offensive and trying to erase history. The "tear it down" mentality has spread beyond Confederate monuments. It's a logical conclusion is the tearing down of every statue or monument and even museum display because most of the subjects of these displays did things we find quite offensive today. I am convinced that is what some of these "activists" want.
3. Related to 2 the reason the reason the Berlin mob was never a threat to freedoms is unlike the American mobs was the East Germans were trying to escape the type of censorious, erase history type state some of the American activists are trying to impose.
The whole plan is bad politics. Most of these statues were headed to the trash bins or museums anyway. Sans vandalism resentence those confederate supporters resisting the inevitable would be the sole owners of the fanatical label. A legitimate argument could be made that the vandalism is speeding up the "righteous" inevitable. But the cost is people hurt, people arrested, and arguably the backlash symbolized by Trump etc, and may be continued and more violent and longer resistance then there would have been.
27 Aug 2018, 3:34 am
ASPartOfMe wrote:
Fnord wrote:
It is not a matter of who committed what crimes, but which side betrayed the nation, and which side lost the war. Let's not lose our historical perspective -- the traitorous Confederacy lost the war. We do not honor traitors or losers. It is just that simple.
We do honor losers of wars
Vietnam Veterans Memorial
naturalplastic wrote:
In 1776 the American colonists rose up in rebellion, and mobs across the thirteen colonies pulled down equestrian statues of King George of England.
Then we fought a war of Independence to break away from the said king.
It took until 1790 for the dust to settle and for us to become a recognized separate independent country from the UK.
But after it was all over in 1790 we didn't go back re erect the statues of King George. Doing so would have been considered insanely absurd.
These confederate statues are all the equivalent of restoring the statues of king George in 1790. Ass backward insanity. We don't have statues of the Kaiser, or Saddam Hussein. So why do we have statues of the defeated traitors who started the civil war? Taking down confederate statues is the obvious commonsense thing to do. Doesn't need to be justified. The question to answer is :why were they put up in the first place?
Then we fought a war of Independence to break away from the said king.
It took until 1790 for the dust to settle and for us to become a recognized separate independent country from the UK.
But after it was all over in 1790 we didn't go back re erect the statues of King George. Doing so would have been considered insanely absurd.
These confederate statues are all the equivalent of restoring the statues of king George in 1790. Ass backward insanity. We don't have statues of the Kaiser, or Saddam Hussein. So why do we have statues of the defeated traitors who started the civil war? Taking down confederate statues is the obvious commonsense thing to do. Doesn't need to be justified. The question to answer is :why were they put up in the first place?
The situations are not analogous. They were in leaders of foreign powers. Confederate leaders were Americans. The North let the monuments stay in an attempt to not create more divisions/heal divisions over a conflict that divided Americans not dissimilar to the Vietnam Memorials.
Civil war veterans at Gettysburg anniversary in 1913 – in pictures
...Again - and I made misspellings in the above post that I did not see then, I see that now. This phone is on it's last legs and is VERY
difficult to dueal with - Numerous Sothern states have RECENT-YEARS passed, inpoosed by the state legislatures, laws that prevent the statues from bring moved! Therefore, that would additionally feed the urge to tear them down illegally, if legal channels are blocked off!
_________________
Renal kidney failure, congestive heart failure, COPD. Can't really get up from a floor position unhelped anymore:-(.
One of the walking wounded ~ SMASHED DOWN by life and age, now prevented from even expressing myself! SOB.
" Oh, no! First you have to PROVE you deserve to go away to college! " ~ My mother, 1978 (the heyday of Andy Gibb and Player). I would still like to go.
My life destroyed by Thorazine and Mellaril - and rape - and the Psychiatric/Industrial Complex. SOB:-(! !! !! !! !! !! !! !! !! !!
28 Aug 2018, 6:11 am
ASS-P wrote:
ASPartOfMe wrote:
Fnord wrote:
It is not a matter of who committed what crimes, but which side betrayed the nation, and which side lost the war. Let's not lose our historical perspective -- the traitorous Confederacy lost the war. We do not honor traitors or losers. It is just that simple.
We do honor losers of wars
Vietnam Veterans Memorial
naturalplastic wrote:
In 1776 the American colonists rose up in rebellion, and mobs across the thirteen colonies pulled down equestrian statues of King George of England.
Then we fought a war of Independence to break away from the said king.
It took until 1790 for the dust to settle and for us to become a recognized separate independent country from the UK.
But after it was all over in 1790 we didn't go back re erect the statues of King George. Doing so would have been considered insanely absurd.
These confederate statues are all the equivalent of restoring the statues of king George in 1790. Ass backward insanity. We don't have statues of the Kaiser, or Saddam Hussein. So why do we have statues of the defeated traitors who started the civil war? Taking down confederate statues is the obvious commonsense thing to do. Doesn't need to be justified. The question to answer is :why were they put up in the first place?
Then we fought a war of Independence to break away from the said king.
It took until 1790 for the dust to settle and for us to become a recognized separate independent country from the UK.
But after it was all over in 1790 we didn't go back re erect the statues of King George. Doing so would have been considered insanely absurd.
These confederate statues are all the equivalent of restoring the statues of king George in 1790. Ass backward insanity. We don't have statues of the Kaiser, or Saddam Hussein. So why do we have statues of the defeated traitors who started the civil war? Taking down confederate statues is the obvious commonsense thing to do. Doesn't need to be justified. The question to answer is :why were they put up in the first place?
The situations are not analogous. They were in leaders of foreign powers. Confederate leaders were Americans. The North let the monuments stay in an attempt to not create more divisions/heal divisions over a conflict that divided Americans not dissimilar to the Vietnam Memorials.
Civil war veterans at Gettysburg anniversary in 1913 – in pictures
...Again - and I made misspellings in the above post that I did not see then, I see that now. This phone is on it's last legs and is VERY
difficult to dueal with - Numerous Sothern states have RECENT-YEARS passed, inpoosed by the state legislatures, laws that prevent the statues from bring moved! Therefore, that would additionally feed the urge to tear them down illegally, if legal channels are blocked off!
Despite the phone problems, you've stated yet another sound background reason for why it is necessary for nonviolent direct action against confederate memorials continuing to trespass on public property. The present situation that you've pointed out is similar to the need occasioned when the Fugitive Slave Act was enacted requiring the northern states to return escaped slaves to their "owners" in the South. That brought about the Underground Railroad established in nonviolent contravention of that law. Not only the Underground Railroad, but there were instances of northern white crowds breaking down jails to free slaves who had been seized in the North under the Fugitive Slave Act and then (like the Underground Railroad) sending them on their way to freedom in Canada. Anybody who argues that there was something wrong with doing these things is on the wrong side of history, just as those who defend the Silent Sam statue which was on its dedication day was used to promoting the whipping a "Negro wench" by a Confederate traitor are on the wrong side of history. Tear down those statues!
09 Sep 2018, 5:49 am
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09 Sep 2018, 12:38 pm
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