I've always wanted perfect Christian theology, but...

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...I can't attain it, of course. No one can.

(I realize not everyone here is Christian, so for those of you who don't believe in this faith, this thread won't be of interest to you...)

Anyway, I still end up trying to get the perfect theology in my head even though I know I can't. Since I'm conservative Christian, I'm also aware of the limits placed on my gender, as we are to not ever teach or instruct men in the public church per what Paul wrote. But that doesn't hinder me from trying to figure it all out in private, comparing and contrasting what the great (and even the amateur) theologians have written throughout the ages. I mean, is it not good to try and figure these things out? Shouldn't women ensure that they are not being led astray by false teachings?

However, it's gotten to be a very lonely road paved with all kinds of frustrations. I've grown weary of all the divisions in Protestantism. I became convinced that Eastern Orthodox might be closer to the best theology...however, when I wrote to one of their groups today, and gave my account of why I was seeking to convert...

...they thought I, my experiences, and my views, were extremely weird. I didn't get a warm welcome at all.

I ended up deleting my post, and I realized that perhaps this church wasn't the One after all.

It got me realizing...who am I, as an autistic female, to think I can sort through all of this in my head?

I don't know which church is best. I still seek the Deity. I cannot see any better alternatives to Christ and the God of the Bible. But I just don't know what to do with all the other divisions in Christendom...there are many. Paul said there weren't supposed to be, but here we are.

I'd been attending, and was confirmed by, a Lutheran Missouri Synod church. But I'm not sure that's the best one anymore. I tried to explain how monergistic salvation and synergistic damnation worked to some women on a forum last month, and it was shot down as a terrible explanation. The women there then found another explanation by someone else that defined it better, but they still thought the Lutheran view was inherently contradictory. Everything is either synergistic or monergistic, it cannot be one way for heaven and another way for hell, they said. Either God knows and elects in advance, or He doesn't. They then asked a ton of other questions I had trouble answering, and it got frustrating again. They got annoyed with my frustration and said my autism was no excuse for my reactions to them. It just went downhill from there.

So I was reminded that I cannot even defend my theological views well, even though I try to the utmost to understand them.

It's been a sad journey. I don't know what God does with His female aspies. Sometimes I wonder if I can be a true servant, even. Am I really saved?

I will avoid church for at least awhile now. But I will continue to pray. The other alternatives seem worse to me. I definitely cannot see world in purely secular terms, or see things through the eyes of other religions.

But I don't know where it is best among God's churches. Not sure where I belong. Not sure which one is closest to all the important Bible Truths.

It's tough...maybe all I should be is a wife, and not do much beyond that. Maybe that's all the Deity's women are supposed to do. And not try to figure out all the theology or do much in churches.

Anyway, those are my contemplations tonight.

Maybe no one can create a coherent theology because it's all nonsense? Theology has no foundation in truth or any truth determining method, it's just elaborate stories to attempt to make sense of a book with no basis in reality.

No mere mortal can be 'perfect', so here are three simple rules for living:

1. Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.

2. Love others, without exception, as you would want them to love you.

3. Love yourself.


As for Christian Theology, consider the Nicene Confessions:

We believe in God, the Father, the Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, and all that is seen and unseen.

We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father, God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, consubstantial one in Being with the Father. Through Him all things were made. For us men and for our salvation He came down from heaven: and by the Holy Spirit was incarnate He was born of the Virgin Mary, and became man. For our sake He was crucified under Pontius Pilate; He suffered, died, and was buried. On the third day He rose again in fulfilment of the Scriptures; He ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father. He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead, and His kingdom will have no end.

We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, who proceeds from the Father and the Son. With the Father and the Son He is worshipped and glorified. He has spoken through the Prophets.

We believe in one holy universal and apostolic Church.

We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.

We look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come.

Amen.

As I stated in the first part of the original thread --

(I realize not everyone here is Christian, so for those of you who don't believe in this faith, this thread won't be of interest to you...)

I don't know if I can help, but I will try.

I would start with the parable of the tares and wheat. A tare is an injurious weed resembling wheat when young. This parable can be found in Matthew 13: 24-30 and 36-43.

He presented another parable to them, saying, "The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a man who sowed good seed in his field. But while he was sleeping, his enemy came and sowed tares also among the wheat, and went away. But when the wheat sprang up and bore grain, then the tares became evident also. And the slaves of the landowner came and said to him, 'Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have tares?' And he said to them, 'An enemy has done this!' And the slaves said to him, "Do you want us, then, to go and gather them up!' But he said 'No; lest while you are gathering up the tares, you may root up the wheat with them. 'Allow both to grow together until the harvest I will say to the reapers, "First gather up the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them up; but gather the wheat into my barn."'"

Then He left the multitudes, and went into the house. And His disciples came to Him, saying, "Explain to us the parable of the tares of the field." And He answered and said, "The one who sows the good seed is the Son of Man, and the field is the world; and as for the good seed, these are the sons of the kingdom; and the tares are the sons of the evil one; and the enemy who sowed them is the devil, and the harvest is the end of the age; and the reapers are angels. Therefore just as the tares are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the end of the age. The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His Kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness, and will cast them into the furnace of fire; in that place there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. THEN THE RIGHTEOUS WILL SHINE FORTH AS THE SUN in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear."

As I read this passage, the field is the world but more specifically Christianity. And within Christianity (at least those calling themselves Christians) there are wheat and tares. This doesn't mean that one denomination is better than another but rather each denomination has wheat and tares. That is why there is so much disharmony within and between Christian denominations. It is not our duty to make the distinction between wheat and tares, God will do that in the Last Days.

The next thing that I would point to is one of the events that happened when Christ died on the cross. This is recounted in Matthew 27: 50-51.

And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His spirit. And behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom, and the earth shook; and the rocks were split,"

The tearing of the veil in my opinion was very significant. During the lifetime of Jesus, the holy temple in Jerusalem was the center of Jewish religious life. The temple was the place where animal sacrifices were carried out and worship according to the Law of Moses was followed faithfully. In the temple a veil separated the Holy of Holies—the earthly dwelling place of God’s presence—from the rest of the temple where men dwelt. This signified that man was separated from God by sin. Only the high priest was permitted to pass beyond this veil once each year to enter into God's presence for all of Israel and make atonement for their sins. In my opinion, the tearing of the veil meant that ordinary Christians like me and you could communicate directly with God and he would hear our voices. We did not have to go through intermediaries. The sacrifice has already been made with the blood of the Lamb.

The third thing that I would point to is the Parable of the Good Shepherd in John 10: 1-5 and 27-29.

"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who does not enter by the door into the fold of the sheep, but climbs up some other way, he is a thief and a robber. But he who enters by the door is a shepherd of the sheep. To him the doorkeeper opens, and the sheep hear his voice, and he calls his own sheep by name, and leads them out. When he puts forth all his own, he goes before them, and the sheep follow him because they know his voice. And a stranger they simply will not follow, but will flee from him, because they do not know the voice of strangers."

"My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they shall never perish; and no one shall snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand."

So pray to God and listen for His voice. It is a gentle voice and full of wisdom. But be aware there are other voices, the voices of thieves and robbers and if you cannot tell the difference than ask God for the gift of discernment. Because "My sheep hear My voice".

"Since I'm conservative Christian, I'm also aware of the limits placed on my gender, as we are to not ever teach or instruct men in the public church per what Paul wrote."

And who says that is the type of christian you have to be? I mean you don't really seem like someone who is big on gender roles based on other posts(if I recall correctly) so why stick to beliefs that tell you you're less because you have different private parts than a man? I don't think Jesus cares if women instruct or teach men in public. Also some denominations even have women pastors.

I know, I know you don't want a lecture...my point is not all christians believe that way and Jesus himself probably would not. Also, if you do want to find a place to attend you could try to check out one of those Unitarian churches or whatever they are called where its pretty open minded and doesn't demand everyone worship or believe the exact same way. I know my mom was going to one for a while and she liked it more than traditional church.

No I am not a christian but, if you are sick of all the rules and trying to stick to a perfect christian image or get fed up with some of the nuisances in the specific domination's there are other options, still within the realm of Christianity.

I'd classify myself more as a Hermetic these days rather than Christian although I have read the bible several times, grew up Roman Catholic, and had a lot of friends who previously got me involved with some rather fiery non-denominational groups.

If I were to try and offer some positive and useful advice it would be this - most of the hair pin turns and contradictions on details will be difficult if not impossible to line up. Part of that is because the genesis of human rules and laws, while they rhyme in certain ways, also tend to have just as much arbitrary material and sometimes that arbitrary material will clash.

Where I think you can have a more enduring faith and not have to tread water for years until you either spend all the material with no solutions or simply give up from exhaustion is try to isolate this to a handful of first principles. If memory serves I Karl Barth was famous for taking this sort of approach, ie. if the core of Christianity is the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ keep that the center. You may or may not find his work interesting, I don't know, but I could see eventually taking the opposite approach - ie. simplifying the core tenets and shaking everything else out as maybe - being a possible resolution to this.

One of the lessons I learned on my first straight through read, ie. Genesis to Revelation, was just how frighteningly wide-open the new testament is. While Exodus, Leviticus, etc. was full of rules and some 613 commandments it's questionable whether you have much more than two in the new testament. I think that's part of why the Catholic church added so much in the way of deposits, dogmas, etc.. Islam apparently had similar problems and out came the Hadiths.

Paul, also Separated the So-Called 'Sinners' in 'Church' From the So-Called Believers (Christians) in Love Your Enemy
as Your Self too, in other Words too: All Alpha through Omega Per John too in God is Love and Per Psalm
82, Ye are all Gods; Sons and Daughters; Yes, PArt of God Whole ALL LoVE.

And now a Short Poem; Perhaps
A Parable; And At Best A Rhetorical Question With an Obvious answer
From A Good Cop Version of Jesus in the New Testament who then went
As Far as Forgiving the Thieves Dying Slowly Tortured Hanging on Crosses Next to him
for he exclaimed they know not what they do, per Excellent Example of Kind And
Loving Evolving Human Cognitive Empathy aCross the Span of one Lifetime now;
Along With Empathy Sympathy and Loving Compassion For All of Existence (God) too.

So who is this Manna (Gift)?

So who is this Bread Of Life?

So who is this God I Am Love?

An Answer A Good Cop Version of Jesus in
the New Testament would give First is You; Yes, Love
When You Come to Be Love Incarnate; And as any Humble
Teacher who Realizes one Already has iT All And is The Greatest Treasure
Possible For Human Being Existing Incarnate and "Autotelic" In Being Human Love;
Now the Last Answer would Obviously Be me for who is Truly Greatest is the Least
Who Serves Love (You) the most. This is no Myth and no Fairy Tale; this is the God
of Human Nature Love; the Altruism As Us We Are Naturally Evolved to Be to Live in Beauty
of Wisdom Courage KiNDness; yes, with emphasis on Kin; the Kin of all that is God Now Alpha Beyond Omega More;
Now, To be Clear That's Just my opinion for I am usually the Outcast So-Called 'Christian' who Loves all that is without Expectation of Return for of course i too am it all now; just now; For this Kingdom of Love is always at Hand within as Love RiSinG even more Dancing and Singing More Love to: ALL. It's Worth Noting that in John 14:12 Folks who Truly
Believe in this Least as 'me' who is Jesus Incarnate and 'Autotelic' Love then that if you Dance and Sing through
Love; yes, the Highest Force of God Within You; yes you too; Will Do Greater Works of God; Yes, Love than
Jesus too. So, in Common Logic/Feel/Sense At Best We Are are All Servants of Love Tending to Greater
And Greater Gardens of Love Both Natured and Nurtured Same as Love We CoMe to be. And for those
Who didn't/don't think the Older Newer and Older Testaments can be improved on they missed
The Entire Message
of the Good Cop
Humble Servant Jesus
Who Has/Is it(Love) All and gives it
All in John 14:12; the most optimistic Loving
Verse in the Entire Bible when Jesus Humbles Himself in Front of all;
Yes, You too
The Manna
coMe
Down
From
Heaven
(L O V E)
The Gift
of Love
as Love
coMes to be US..
Not Every one gets the Deeper Meanings
of Poetry, Including Parables, my FriEnd;
SoMe Have/Are deeper eYes oF LoVE That And Who Freely Give And Share More as less..

No theology is "perfect". Find a theology that suits you, or create your own.

An example of 'Christian' Misogyny: Paul didn't want women to speak in church.

An example of 'Christian' Narcissism: Paul kept reminding people of his background and who he was.

Maybe if you’re not satisfied with churches but you want to be a Christian you should just read the Bible and try to follow what you think God’s Will is the best you can.

Or you could go to a more liberal church that’s welcoming and accepting but still keep your conservativism in practice if that’s what you like.

From a Christian standpoint, God will bless you and draw close to you if you draw close to him as best you can. James 4:8.

I’m an atheist by the way so you should take whatever I say with a grain of salt.

You should read Dostoyevsky's Brothers Karamazov; ultimately all theology is just hot air. The only thing that matters is our humility before the presence of God in everyday life. No analytical reasoning will ever or can ever justify a concept beyond the bounds of analysis.

I’m curious: what are your theological views?

I promise: I’ll just listen, and not argue.

She's probably done with this thread right now.

I do wish her the best of luck in working through this, just that I suspect whatever answers lead her to peace won't be in the direction she's currently probing.

Thanks; I've read that novel before, and respect it. I do have a bit more kinship toward Tolstoy's points in Anna Karenina and War and Peace, though (I particularly like Karenina's ending, but I think the scope of War and Peace is deeper overall).

I'm of the inclination right now to think that while we need some basis of sound theology and analytical reasoning, these things in and of themselves don't change us or inspire us. Humility is also indeed required, and few possess it. This is a world of clanging cymbals, to be sure.

As far as Tolstoy is concerned, he considered his Twenty-three Tales to be his greatest work, precisely because it is concerned with simple Christian innocence and humility rather than being a grand vision of the heroic human spirit. His work on the gospels is also important in this respect.

I liked War and Peace, though I thought Anna Karenina extremely disappointing - just a tedious romance about an egoistic woman intent on getting her own frivolous way regardless of the consequences to her family. She reminded me of Flaubert's Madame Bovary, an equally repulsive and adolescent woman.

Going back to theology, there is not, even in principle, any way of coming to terms with the nature of God through analytical reasoning. This was demonstrated conclusively by Kant. The only way of justifying Christian belief, as Kant recognised, is through PRACTICAL rather than pure reason.