What NT accepted behaviour flumoxes you the most?

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Modern suits and ties aren't as ancient as some of the other cultural attires mentioned. That's not really the point though. While western in design, they've been adopted by a certain class of people throughout much of the world. But it's inaccurate to assume the suit and tie was the standard wear for "westerners" at any given point. I think of the London of Dickens. The wealthy bankers and industrialists all wore suits as a show of wealth and status. The peasants working the mills and factories didn't dress like that, couldn't afford to dress like that, and dressing in a full piece suit and tie would be impractical for that common labor. And neither group gave a damn about using up resources or polluting the environment.

You're making some odd leaps here. No one mentioned tattoos and beards specifically, or "the just be yourself" mantra. I think the idea was more about how NTs seem more class-conscious, and a suit and tie is a display of power and social ranking. I don't totally fault you for judging people by appearance, it's natural. But if you're already trending towards feelings of superiority over others you see in passing without knowing anything about them, something odd is going on. Theory of Mind problems? Perhaps. Young and still insulated in life? Clearly. And, I need to ask, do you come from a priviledge background? It's very important. Economics plays into the ability to wear a suit and tie everyday in the first place.

What I'm getting at is you seem to be jumping to some conclusions without understanding the greater social workings in order. Social workings that are apparently natural to NTs but baffling to most of us, regardless of how any party is dressed. That's what I was getting at.

Are you showing classism though? Because rich people wear it I must reject it.

That's not an ND thing. Its just inverted snobbery.

I had a presentation at college in the late 90s and went to the job centre straight afterward to see what jobs were being advertised, this is before people looked for work online. I wore a skirt suit because I wanted to look smart for my presentation. As I walked up the stairwell these track suit wearing youths, probably older than I was, remarked, "I hate how those people dress." I'm pretty sure those folks were NT.

Are you judging me and my contemporaries for wearing suits in the way that those NT kids did?

The skirt was just a basic black one from Dorothy Perkins and the jacket was 2nd hand. Both were machine washable.

No, and this is an important point; cultures can never be allowed to become static; history tells us that overly static, complacent cultures s'effondrent, as the French say. Sparta, Rome, Ming China and many other examples come to mind. If my appeal were solely to history, I'd have to ditch my necktie for an Ascot - then I'd have to ditch that for an earlier sartorial form - and so on until I began to wear a toga. Culture is not static, it is forever evolving (or should be). This is why, while they're generally a recent development (from the 60s and later), I consider it ok to wear a coloured shirt for almost all purposes - because culture changes. I don't consider it acceptable to wear a t-shirt, however, for almost any purposes - because the t-shirt represents not an addition to the body of the western cultural tradition, but an assault on it; the t-shirt was adopted as a counter cultural form of dress in the 1960s by puerile students whose unresolved Oedipal rage caused them to see the traditions of their parents as oppressive as such.




Yes, it's true that there were differences in the sartorial traditions of the different classes - again, the same can be said about any other culture. Nevertheless therr was a broad consensus on the general KINDS of clothes to be worn; every man, whatever his class, was expected, for example, to wear a waistcoat until about the forties - the CEO of JP Morgan would obviously have worn a BETTER waistcoat than a coal miner, but both wore them.



I have sought my whole life to find people I COULD look up to, and am yet to succeed. This doesn't stroke my ego or make me feel good the way it would most people; it genuinely saddens me.



My age can't have anything to do with it, because my views are clearly not only different from others my age, but diametrically opposed to their own (alas). I come from a background as common as is possible; my father was a taxi driver and my mother a part the cleaner. My paternal grandfather made shoes for a living in a factory his whole life. Ironically, my father, while having made some progress, is yet to have emerged from the shell of the Marxist conditioning every child in the West has been brought up with in the past fifty years or so; he still, like many here, views the suit and tie as an elitist imposition and refuses to wear one even at funerals. Economics determines, to an extent, the quality of one's suit and tie, but doesn't preclude owning such clothes altogether.

Wasn't around for a few days, but wanted to reply. @hurtloam:

While that's a good point in a general sense, I never actually knocked the suit and tie and the people who wear them in any of my posts. What I was getting is that, in passing, on the street, I can't know the true character of a man in a suit-and-tie vs. a man in jeans and a t-shirt just from walking by them. Either way. Personally, if I wear a suit-and-tie on Monday, and jeans and a t-shirt on Tuesday, I'm still the same person. Whether you like my company or you think I'm a pretentious ass in one attire, I'm still very much the same person in the other.

Also, snobbery is just plain snobbery, so it's never truly "inverted" regardless of who is being snobbish (though I understand the point you're making about the stereotype of the rich and well-dressed being presumably more snobbish).

And attire isn't always class-related. Poorer people might wear "nice clothes" for a funeral or a job interview, and the millionaire might feel like lounging around in sweat pants one day. Hell, he can afford to do so. So, in passing, we can't really know for sure what the mindset is of any random person we've never met based solely on their attire for that particular day. You reiterated my point with your own example, but misunderstood what I was getting at. I was never judging anyone for wearing "nice clothes." I was critical of being quick to dismiss someone for NOT wearing nice clothes, especially someone you've never met.

What I was a bit taken aback by was this:



...as it seems awfully judgmental and reactionary for some random person who happens to stroll by. We've already decided someone is an "idiot" off-hand, and that he must believe anything short of his attire is "mindless conformism" when we don't actually know for sure what his true thoughts are. Also, casually dismissing him on sight as an "ill-bred moron" shows a certain character trait in the person making such a quick judgement that I find a bit off-putting. No different than when those two youths openly dismissed you as one of 'those people.'

@Prometheus18:

See, that's a bit presumptuous on your part. You may find, in time, as you "live and learn" that your perceptions and comprehensions of the wider world change a bit. I would hope they would, as I don't think the average 60 year old, regardless of belief system, still has the exact same perceptions of the world as he did when he was 20. We're all a bit limited in our views and all discover new things and occasionally change our minds as we get a bit older. And yes, people of all ages have radically different beliefs, and some people, such as yourself, have beliefs which are seemingly at odds with the majority. That might not change, but to say age "can't" have anything to do with your current comprehension of reality shows a limit of perception. You're 22, at 32 you may find while you're still the same person more-or-less, you've since discovered some new insights that you're not currently aware of.



Of course economics doesn't precluding owning nice clothes, never said it did. And if you feel the need to wear a suit-and-tie everyday to better yourself or because it feels right to you, I'm not knocking it. But how can you blindly assume that EVERYONE you encounter in passing not wearing "nice clothes" is of the same belief system of your father? Maybe the guy in hang-around clothes today will be in a suit-and-tie tomorrow. You've already dismissed him as an ill-bred idiot moron. At 22, I was prone to do similar things. Quick to judge (though not so quick) and writing out long analytical treatises which I thought helped me understand the world better. There's still a lot left to learn.

But you can write me off as ill-bred. I won't mind. It's based on my beliefs and not on what I'm wearing right now (since you can't see me).

I also wonder if it's cultural as well. You and hurtloam appear to be British, and I think classism and class-consciousness (while present worldwide) are particularity entrenched in British society.

Of course it's impossible to cast COMPLETELY reliable judgements, at first acquaintance, upon a person's character. What I mean is that upon a statistical basis, one can conclude that the sort of person who dresses in the way described is LIKELY to be a gullible moron.

How they say "sorry" for things that are not their fault. They often do not say "sorry" for things that are their fault. However, a verbal apology is often insufficient to fix the damage they caused



How they act so simple-minded and excited,

Like everything is completely good or bad

What flumoxes me is the way NT people talk all the time and most of it is not true anyway. It is so pointless. They talk whe there's nothing to say.

How they say "are you ok?".

If you are ok, it's like you have to say "thank you "

If you are not ok, they can't or won't "help"


If they do "help" , they act like they dragged my worthless corpse out of a burning building

Shaking hands, this is how people get sick

"do you have a question?".

Questions are not morally superior to statements.

As if, if you have a question, the speaker has an answer.

"How are you doing?"

There are five emotions of "happy" is just one of them. Some precious lil "people" act so entitled , like they have a moral right to be "happy" at all times.




"Can you", like, if you can, you have to.

Overly worshipping formal education

Saying "interesting" or making it look like everything is "interesting". Not everything has to be interesting

Compliments are just as judgmental as insults

Asking personal questions, as if that makes you a better person. By showing interest.

+1000

Society enforced vanity of any sort always bothered me too. Social media created a wave of people with confidence problems and ego fragility a place to seek validation any place that can take a camera shot. It's dismal, it's annoying and the one time I tried it, I was laughed at for doing it.

Not. A. Fan.

How they act like everything is either completely good or bad.

"Helping", "hurting".

As if all "help" is equal.

The current counselor told me that "you were helping people eat" when I worked at a restaurant.

If I did not work there, someone else would have worked there. If nobody worked there, customers eat something else. If customers do not eat something else, they lose a couple pounds for a couple of days.

Nobody is going to drop dead. That otherwise would not have dropped dead. And dropping dead is not necessarily a bad thing. overpopulation

Is it weird that I actually like wearing formal attire?

Yeah. There's an afternoon radio program where I live that I listen to for news and weather, but it annoys me how much the host uses the word "interesting" to describe pretty much everything on the show. I joke that if I had a sip of very mildly alcoholic beer for every time she uses the word "interesting" during the show, I'd be very drunk by the end of the afternoon.