Report about successes for getting rid of ASD problems

Page 2 of 4 [ 61 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next

Edna3362
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 29 Oct 2011
Gender: Female
Posts: 11,504
Location: ᜆᜄᜎᜓᜄ᜔

05 Oct 2018, 1:39 pm

quite an extreme wrote:
Edna3362 wrote:
Empathy? Uhuh... But is that ALL the problem that ASD brings??

It's a big problem if you don't have empathy nor feelings towards other people. There are not just many people who really like ice cold people who act always without any emotions towards other people. Not even if this emotionless people are the most positive and nicest humans on earth otherwise. Would you like and marry a guy who not even feels real attraction to you because he's unable to feel in such way? May be some hookers don't care if he is wealthy enough.

You're the wrong person for me to ask then. :?
And I'm also the wrong person to ask me about marrying a guy who doesn't feel.

I don't even have interest on marriage or the concept of attraction, with emotions or otherwise. I can't even answer that, and I won't answer on other's behalf.

And you know what you want. :lol:

quite an extreme wrote:
Edna3362 wrote:
Joy from others? That's easy.

Not for people like me.

Have you heard the term "Alexithymia"? And how often this occurs within the spectrum?

quite an extreme wrote:
Edna3362 wrote:
But so are other emotions -- rage, sorrow, desperation, longing, and so on.

Whats wrong with rage? What's wrong with longing? Fulfilled longing is one of the most beautiful emotions that humans are able to feel. Longing was one of the few emotions that I was always able to feel. But you are always longing for an other kind of emotion even if the longing feels the same.

Had I said otherwise? :| Never did said wrong about it.
I even indulge my own rage. :twisted:

quite an extreme wrote:
Edna3362 wrote:
I think 'empathy' won't make me a good person, let alone a morally better person -- at least not for the first 30 or so years of my life.

Thats not the point. Without empathy you are nearly unable to cause others to really love you.


I think you have yet much to learn.
There is such thing as unconditional love.


Recently have you been recently 'aware' of emotions of yourself and other's?
If so, then you're quite lucky you end up with curiosity instead of a rather explosive like rude awakening like I had.



But I won't press any more of this subject from my own case though.

Let's just say I have more than enough 'feeling'.
Sensing that 'feeling', keeping that 'feeling', letting that 'feeling' go, thinking about that 'feeling', and so much more about knowing when and when not to let out said 'feeling'.
And looking for cultural knowledge and loopholes to match these 'feelings' for the right gestures and verbal terms are never will be enough as it is an ever changing world. Luckily, I'm surrounded with a relatives and family friends who do these things whenever they plan to work overseas -- and watch them translate their native terms into another.


Hopefully, anyone else would continue this subject as you hoped -- because they likely have the right words and the right sequence of descriptions for these things.


Long story short, empathy is a very complicated subject.
So complicated, some focus with the social-human kind of empathy, some focus with the cultural kind of empathy, some focus with the medical terms of neurobiology and biochemistry, some would go for ethics and morality, some would go for psychology and/or psychiatric terms, and many would go for subjective terms and accounts.
Then add autism to the mix. :lol: You'll get a tangle webs that overlaps another.

Whatever path you just took, it'll be a very bumpy one. :lol:
Happy inner lookings. :twisted: And I don't mean a literal one.


_________________
Gained Number Post Count (1).
Lose Time (n).

Lose more time here - Updates at least once a week.


jimmy m
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 30 Jun 2018
Age: 75
Gender: Male
Posts: 8,553
Location: Indiana

05 Oct 2018, 5:53 pm

Alexithymia is a personality construct characterized by the subclinical inability to identify and describe emotions in the self. The core characteristics of alexithymia are marked dysfunction in emotional awareness, social attachment, and interpersonal relating. Furthermore, people with alexithymia have difficulty in distinguishing and appreciating the emotions of others, which is thought to lead to unempathic and ineffective emotional responding. Alexithymia occurs in approximately 10% of the population and can occur with a number of psychiatric conditions.

Alexithymia is not classified as a mental disorder in the fourth edition of the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders.

So by this definition if you have alexithymia then you are unable to describe your emotions or convey your emotions in the properly acceptable manner in today's society.

I feel emotions, lots of emotions and I suspect most Aspies do also. We just are unable to convey these emotions properly. As a result," we might come across as ice cold people.

So if I try and paraphrase what quite an extreme has said:
The brain is able to learn even the emotional part and the proper display of empathy.
Learn to recognize emotions in body language and verbal language.
Train yourself to correctly observing emotions and reflect the proper body language and verbal language appropriately.
Try to read facial expressions of other people as well. Be aware to that you always should have a good mood if doing so. Try a smile and a kind of feeling happy for them if you look into the eyes of other people. The problem why Aspergers don't use eye contact is that we always experienced aggression once we did because looking emotionless in somebodies eyes is recognised by NT people as pure aggression.

There are many ways to interpret the problems experienced by Aspies. It is probably more than a single problem and more than one cause. At the moment I am looking at the problem through the lens of overwhelming stress and trauma.
Peter A. Leine in the book In An Unspoken Voice wrote:
Traumatized individuals generally find themselves, as with Pavlov's transmarginal phase, swinging wildly and unpredictably between being numb and shut down on one hand and being flooded by emotion, including terror and rage, on the other. These bipolar swings are often erratic and capricious. With human post traumatic stress disorder, chronic sufferers tend to gravitate, over time, toward shutdown. This shows up as symptoms of alexithymia (the inability to describe or elaborate feelings due to a deficiency in emotional awareness), depression and somatization.


_________________
Author of Practical Preparations for a Coronavirus Pandemic.
A very unique plan. As Dr. Paul Thompson wrote, "This is the very best paper on the virus I have ever seen."


Trogluddite
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 2 Feb 2016
Age: 53
Gender: Male
Posts: 3,075
Location: Yorkshire, UK

07 Oct 2018, 6:23 pm

jimmy_m wrote:
Alexithymia is a personality construct characterized by the subclinical inability to identify and describe emotions in the self...

Alexithymia is reported to have a far higher prevalence in the autistic population than the general population, possibly 50% or more, though that covers a wide range of degrees and combinations of the traits. Feeling "a lot of emotion" does not necessarily preclude alexithymia, as experiencing a powerful physiological response does not necessarily mean that there is fine-grained perception of the differences between closely related emotions, or that we can accurately identify any particular emotion.

I have the alexithymic traits very strongly, and I know that I often feel what seems like empathy, the feeling of another's emotion, but that I can often be wrong about what emotion I am empathising with - it can be a very different emotion to the one experienced by the other person, and unless they make it explicit, I have no way to know that my empathy is inaccurate. I do think that this can fool some alexithymic people into thinking that they are more empathic than they really are. It was relatively late in life, when first trying to form romantic relationships, that I realised that my ability to read emotions was so poor, and how much more diverse they are than what I was aware of ever having experienced. I even have external emotional responses which others can read, but which I cannot - I struggle to empathise with myself, so to speak.

However, I agree with the principle of this thread, and what jimmy_m has said about the possibility of learning better emotional cognition, both in others and in oneself. I know from experience that alexithymic traits can and do respond to training and cognitive therapies. The most recent counsellor that I saw (trained in autism-specific CBT) was able to use exercises in reading my body's physiological signs of emotion (insensitivity in proprioception is part of the problem for some people), mimicry of external emotional responses (partly how infants learn emotional intelligence), and using film clips, literature, etc. for illustration (I rarely consumed fictional media until adulthood.)

At my age, I doubt that I'll ever be as emotionally responsive or expressive as most other people, and there may be certain limits imposed by my sensory and cognitive impairments, but the improvements have been very significant, and the techniques I was taught allow me to continue improving.

"Got rid of"? Not quite, but certainly a profoundly worthwhile change for the better!


_________________
When you are fighting an invisible monster, first throw a bucket of paint over it.


jimmy m
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 30 Jun 2018
Age: 75
Gender: Male
Posts: 8,553
Location: Indiana

08 Oct 2018, 9:46 am

Empathy is an interesting topic. I gave it some thought and decided there are two forms of empathy. These are "emotional empathy" and "logical empathy".

Many Aspies identify with Mr. Spock on Star Trek. I am a pattern thinker and I view life from math, science and logic. So I can view life from that perspective. "Logical empathy" would be similar to the logic Spock would incorporate.

So let me begin by discussing some of the traits of Aspies.

One of the traits observed in Aspies is that they lack imagination. This observed Aspie characteristic does not strike true. I have a very vivid sense of imagination. I operate on 5 or 6 planes at once and seamlessly move between them. The best that I can make out is that they are referring to social imagination, such as trying to figure out what someone is feeling or thinking. Emotional Empathy

Another trait observed in Aspies is difficulty understanding others’ feelings, difficulty communicating feelings, unaware of others’ thoughts, feelings, desires, intentions or perceptions resulting in inadvertently appearing rude or inconsiderate. Yes, I fit that trait to a tea. Emotional Empathy
I have internally very strong emotions but I cannot sense the emotions of others. PERIOD

But in place of Emotional Empathy I have developed Logical Empathy. So let me give a couple examples of how logical empathy works.

Example #1
Say, I have been working for a company for several years, my performance has been exemplary and I have decided it is time to seek a promotion. This can be very stressful. But I have made the decision and it is time for me to act. But my boss has been away for a couple days and he is only coming in for a couple hours today. So more stress. So when I encounter him, he tells me that he is really busy but he will make a few minutes for me just before he leaves work. I am really stressed and prepare in my mind what I will say. It is very well scripted. [In this scenario, I am focused solely on myself.]

Now looking at this from a pattern thinker mind incorporating logical empathy. I notice that the pattern has changed. My boss who hardly ever is away from work has been missing for several days. And for someone who would always work a full day, coming in for a couple hours is outside his normal routine. So I approach and ask one of my fellow workers about my boss. I say "something is off". My fellow worker responds "His daughter was killed in a freak car accident a couple days ago." Now I imagine being in his shoes, I understand the emotions he is going through and very logically understand this is DEFINITELY NOT the time to request a raise.

Example #2
One of the great American generals in World War II was George Smith Patton, Jr. Patton led U.S. troops into the Mediterranean theater with an invasion of Casablanca during Operation Torch in 1942, and soon established himself as a very effective commander through his rapid rehabilitation of the demoralized U.S. II Corps. He commanded the U.S. Seventh Army during the Allied invasion of Sicily, where he was the first Allied commander to reach Messina.

But in Sicily he became embroiled in controversy after he slapped two shell-shocked soldiers under his command, and was temporarily removed from battlefield command. So even though he was a household name in America at the time, his actions were severely criticized in the media.

Someone at the time used Logical Empathy. They placed themselves in the shoes of the German Generals. These generals made their careers by being extremely competent in battle. They could not conceive that America would demote and sideline Patton, one of the greatest American generals ever, just because he slapped a couple shell shocked soldiers. They would logically conceive that this was merely a ploy by the Americans to misdirect the German battle plans. So the Germans watched Patton like a hawk, his every move. And the Americans then assigned Patton a key role in Operation Fortitude, the Allies' disinformation campaign for Operation Overlord, the invasion of Normandy in June 1944.


_________________
Author of Practical Preparations for a Coronavirus Pandemic.
A very unique plan. As Dr. Paul Thompson wrote, "This is the very best paper on the virus I have ever seen."


quite an extreme
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 20 Aug 2018
Age: 324
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,922
Location: Germany

11 Oct 2018, 4:51 pm

Edna3362 wrote:
I think you have yet much to learn.
There is such thing as unconditional love.


I know but for me it's not as easy to find it.



Edna3362
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 29 Oct 2011
Gender: Female
Posts: 11,504
Location: ᜆᜄᜎᜓᜄ᜔

12 Oct 2018, 6:37 am

quite an extreme wrote:
Edna3362 wrote:
I think you have yet much to learn.
There is such thing as unconditional love.


I know but for me it's not as easy to find it.


Unconditional love is hard for everyone to pull off. True unconditional love is impossible.
The closest approximate is too hard considering the human nature. :P And even harder to find from anyone for the same reasons.


_________________
Gained Number Post Count (1).
Lose Time (n).

Lose more time here - Updates at least once a week.


IstominFan
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 25 Nov 2016
Age: 59
Gender: Female
Posts: 11,114
Location: Santa Maria, CA.

13 Oct 2018, 9:28 am

I consider myself very empathetic. However, I do make dumb mistakes and misread social cues, which can cause trouble. I feel bad when I do this.



quite an extreme
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 20 Aug 2018
Age: 324
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,922
Location: Germany

16 Oct 2018, 4:50 pm

IstominFan wrote:
I consider myself very empathetic. However, I do make dumb mistakes and misread social cues, which can cause trouble. I feel bad when I do this.

Nearly nobody is perfect if it comes to this. Feeling empathy isn't enough to guess the peoples intentions.



naturalplastic
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 26 Aug 2010
Age: 69
Gender: Male
Posts: 34,142
Location: temperate zone

20 Oct 2018, 2:37 pm

Cant even wrap my head around the question.

Aspergers doesn't bother me on a day to day basis today. Or not in a way that effects me consciously.

It did effect me day to day when I was a school kid. But that was long before I knew what aspergers was.



blooiejagwa
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 19 Dec 2017
Age: 33
Gender: Female
Posts: 5,793

21 Oct 2018, 1:11 pm

Raleigh wrote:
Unlike others on the spectrum, I empathise too much.
This causes great mental and emotional suffering.
If I could not care so much that would be great.


Me too however I display it less visibly or awkwardly in a way they might not like or understand
So now I give lots of gifts eg to ppl i know who have been through and going through the worst possible things (eg sons therapist her story is v tragic)-
Gift giving n letting them know
Then ppl who know u well adapt to n understand how you are
And it becomes more harmonious (relationship)


_________________
Take defeat as an urge to greater effort.
-Napoleon Hill


blooiejagwa
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 19 Dec 2017
Age: 33
Gender: Female
Posts: 5,793

21 Oct 2018, 1:13 pm

Of course there may be those like my XH who were convinced it was all an ‘act’ as they cd not conceive of a different processing and display of feelings than theirs

Also other things

But it’ll take forever to talk about misunderstandings and misperceptions as that is the norm


_________________
Take defeat as an urge to greater effort.
-Napoleon Hill


quite an extreme
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 20 Aug 2018
Age: 324
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,922
Location: Germany

21 Oct 2018, 2:20 pm

naturalplastic wrote:
Cant even wrap my head around the question.
You don't have to.
naturalplastic wrote:
It did effect me day to day when I was a school kid. But that was long before I knew what aspergers was.
As a school kid it Asperger's didn't effect me. Except once that I had to fight the leader of the boys of my class. I didn't care about their hierarchy and I didn't understand why he wanted to fight me and why all others were against me once he did it. But I took him to ground and he had to give up. :D The boy wasn't accepted as the leader any longer and I was accepted by the other boys after this. I think I had luck with this. :mrgreen:



jimmy m
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 30 Jun 2018
Age: 75
Gender: Male
Posts: 8,553
Location: Indiana

21 Oct 2018, 5:39 pm

blooiejagwa wrote:
Raleigh wrote:
Unlike others on the spectrum, I empathise too much.
This causes great mental and emotional suffering.
If I could not care so much that would be great.


Me too however I display it less visibly or awkwardly in a way they might not like or understand
So now I give lots of gifts eg to ppl i know who have been through and going through the worst possible things (eg sons therapist her story is v tragic)-
Gift giving n letting them know
Then ppl who know u well adapt to n understand how you are
And it becomes more harmonious (relationship)


Customs will vary from one country to the next. We have a friend who was from the Philippines. But we have to watch what we say around her. She is the type that whenever someone compliment anything she has, she will give it to them as a gift. Someone complimented her on her light fixture in the ceiling and she went and disconnected the wiring and removed the fixture from the ceiling and gave it to them right on the spot. This was a generous act but sometimes gift giving can be too generous.

I guess I understand "Thank You" cards and "Thinking of You" cards. I understand flowers. I give those to my wife all the time especially beautiful red roses.


_________________
Author of Practical Preparations for a Coronavirus Pandemic.
A very unique plan. As Dr. Paul Thompson wrote, "This is the very best paper on the virus I have ever seen."


drlaugh
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 28 Dec 2015
Posts: 3,360

21 Oct 2018, 6:29 pm

Before I read this I thought it related to an acquaintance told me his Autism was caused during birth and corrected by surgery, chiropractic neck things.

I’m fine, the way I am is how I answered him.

He also told me he was better than him.
Me a level 1 and he was a
O.005.

Actually I stopped listening totally after he said he was better than me.

8)


_________________
Still too old to know it all


blooiejagwa
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 19 Dec 2017
Age: 33
Gender: Female
Posts: 5,793

21 Oct 2018, 9:44 pm

jimmy m wrote:
blooiejagwa wrote:
Raleigh wrote:
Unlike others on the spectrum, I empathise too much.
This causes great mental and emotional suffering.
If I could not care so much that would be great.


Me too however I display it less visibly or awkwardly in a way they might not like or understand
So now I give lots of gifts eg to ppl i know who have been through and going through the worst possible things (eg sons therapist her story is v tragic)-
Gift giving n letting them know
Then ppl who know u well adapt to n understand how you are
And it becomes more harmonious (relationship)


Customs will vary from one country to the next. We have a friend who was from the Philippines. But we have to watch what we say around her. She is the type that whenever someone compliment anything she has, she will give it to them as a gift. Someone complimented her on her light fixture in the ceiling and she went and disconnected the wiring and removed the fixture from the ceiling and gave it to them right on the spot. This was a generous act but sometimes gift giving can be too generous.

I guess I understand "Thank You" cards and "Thinking of You" cards. I understand flowers. I give those to my wife all the time especially beautiful red roses.


Yes I saw in Middle East gift giving is a big thing- casually even, so I decided to adopt that custom for myself

it is nice to give ppl things you know they want or need-
But just cannot bring themselves to buy

Eg this lady has beautiful long blonde hair and was complaining about it breaking.
Also she is a single mom working hard - never has time to look after herself - but she often tells me she hates how she looks next to the rich ladies who are the mothers of her daughter’s Friends.

So i bought her hair serum, special ponytails that are not harsh on hair, some makeup and body lotion bcuz she complained her skin is dry.

I know i cannot connect to ppl i like on a social level to their happiness/satisfaction -

but to contribute to their lives, caring can be shown in gifts.


_________________
Take defeat as an urge to greater effort.
-Napoleon Hill


blooiejagwa
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 19 Dec 2017
Age: 33
Gender: Female
Posts: 5,793

21 Oct 2018, 9:47 pm

quite an extreme wrote:
jimmy m wrote:
So maybe you could describe what the mental training consisted of that allowed you to feel empathy?


The brain is able to learn even the emotional part. If you learn something new it even generates new neurons in the related regions. And for this it's like for anything else. To learn math you have to do math. To learn to read body language you have to do it. To learn to feel emotions you have to do to feel them. To learn empathy you need to do it. Simple? Yes and no. Yes because you know what you have to do now. No because there are some additional pitfalls. Once I tryed to feel more emotions towards other people I found myself to shutdown any emotions as soon as other people come near to me. It's an emotional self-protection issue for not getting emotional hurt by other people and may be the root cause of my problems and may be the one for several others.

If it comes to women the things get awkward. Shutting down emotions towards others keep also away from feeling attracted. This tells women that you don't really feel attracted even if you totally like them. On the opposite if a woman feels you being attracted to her she feels attracted herself to you. Otherwise she needs a really crush on you before to do so.

What is the way to go now? Learn to read body language and learn to feel much more emotions. Try to recognise emotions in body language and verbal language. Start to feel empathy.
For reading body language you should watch and guess how they feel and what they want to do. Try to imaginary take their position. Ask yourself what the reasons are to use that body posture and movements as the other one does. Get used to it and do it always and anywhere. You'll become trained and better over the time and you'll recognise more and more subtle details. Try it especially on places where people are much emotional. Discos, bars, festivals aso.

Try to read facial expressions of other people as well. Be aware to that you always should have a good mood if doing so. Try a smile and a kind of feeling happy for them if you look into the eyes of other people. The problem why Aspergers don't use eye contact is that we always experienced aggression once we did because looking emotionless in somebodies eyes is recognised by NT people as pure aggression. (Why does he looks such ice cold and emotionless?) If it comes to me I always thought for looking in other peoples eyes as a kind of a pure agression. And once I was young I never looked girls into their eyes because I didn't want to scare them and the girls treated it as me not being honest and didn't liked me because of that. And I didn't even knew whats wrong with me. Because of this I had really bad position and I wish somebody had told me. :(

How to learn to have emotions? Be aware that you may shut down emotions near other people. Once you are alone try to feel the impressions of the environment. Nice things like as your bed, nice clothing, flowers, pictures aso. Train it. Try to keep feeling emotions once people that you know get near to you and guess the emotions of other people. Try to guess the emotions of other people also while reading their body language. You can even use videos on youtube or the TV for that because the people there are distant and not near to you and can't harm you. Try always to stop yourself suppressing emotions.

Once you are able to read the body language and emotions of other people you are also getting more and more a clue their brain works and get more and more an idea whats possibly wrong with them. People may even begin to look emotional trivial to you.

A sample. I was on a autism meeting a month ago. One guy always did strange unconscious movements because he feels always unsure near to other people. The movement were just defense moves of toddlers. For me it was very clear that he was beaten once he was small. :( His selfdefense movements saved him a bit and he started doing them unconsciously until now once he is near to other people. This makes him looking awkward and strange and causes other people to refuse him. He has no problems if it comes to empathy. All he needs is sombody who teaches him self confidence and who stops him hard once he tries to show this movements. Why didn't ever somebody help him with that?

That's quite all. I hope this thread becomes the longest and most successful thread here as soon as possible.


These are excellent points. Just have to remember not to strain ourselves to breaking point- and blame ourselves on failures-

there is only so much one person can do- the other side also has to bridge the gap!


_________________
Take defeat as an urge to greater effort.
-Napoleon Hill