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The censorious political left and free speech

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blitzkrieg
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10 Oct 2018, 10:52 pm

What are people thinking when they want to censor everything because it is perceived to be offensive - especially when it concerns history? Don't these people put things into context; are they really that stupid?

Blows my mind how censorious much of the political left is. It's bad in my country, the UK, but even worse in the US. Some of those people are downright scary with how anti-liberal they are.



mr_bigmouth_502
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11 Oct 2018, 12:47 am

The right likes to censor things too, like the teaching of evolution in public schools.


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11 Oct 2018, 12:52 am

Relocated to PPR from Autism Activism politics forum - the forum is for political activism and news specifically relating to AS initiatives toward achieving change, not political topics of this kind.



blitzkrieg
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11 Oct 2018, 6:50 pm

mr_bigmouth_502 wrote:
The right likes to censor things too, like the teaching of evolution in public schools.


Yeah, this post wasn't an attack on the left in general - more so a specific subset of illiberal leftists. I have no sympathy for most things right wing.



AspE
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11 Oct 2018, 8:41 pm

The right doesn't believe in free speech, but they will happily goad perceived leftists to put their foot down over Nazis and trolls, just so they can use it as a weapon.

f**k brexit



Mythos
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12 Oct 2018, 3:54 pm

I understand your concerns are valid, but in reality there is no definition of free speech that satisfies all. Personally, I don't think as an example Nazism should be protected but some people regard censoring neonazi lies and slander as "free speech". Is it, though? Not in my opinion; it's a hate crime and misinformation, both of which need to be stamped out posthaste.

There are many examples we could discuss but you likely understand my point. Free speech is more or less just a myth peddled by people who like to spew hateful rhetoric or protect an assumed right to be cyberbullies.

I know there's more to it than that, but I get the impression this is the majority thought process.

AspE wrote:
The right doesn't believe in free speech, but they will happily goad perceived leftists to put their foot down over Nazis and trolls, just so they can use it as a weapon.

f**k brexit
Essentially. More to the point, it's a tool to be utilised by those who can shape it into a weapon for their rhetoric. Misinformation, slander and lies are all rampant and ubiquitous online. We need less freedom of speech, not more.



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12 Oct 2018, 4:03 pm

mr_bigmouth_502 wrote:
The right likes to censor things too, like the teaching of evolution in public schools.


They’re doing that up there?


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12 Oct 2018, 4:29 pm

Mythos wrote:
I understand your concerns are valid, but in reality there is no definition of free speech that satisfies all. Personally, I don't think as an example Nazism should be protected but some people regard censoring neonazi lies and slander as "free speech". Is it, though? Not in my opinion; it's a hate crime and misinformation, both of which need to be stamped out posthaste.

There are many examples we could discuss but you likely understand my point. Free speech is more or less just a myth peddled by people who like to spew hateful rhetoric or protect an assumed right to be cyberbullies.

I know there's more to it than that, but I get the impression this is the majority thought process.



Hate speech is not a crime, nor is misinformation. I certainly understand your sentiments, and I wish there weren't so many ignorant, bigoted bastards around. But the first Amendment protects all speech, regardless of how vile it may be. That's the price of living in a free society. We have to put with everyone's opinions, even if we find them objectionable. Once we start determining which speech is acceptable or not, then we ae on a nonstop course to total fascism.


The antidote to hate speech is not censorship; it's a counter argument.


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12 Oct 2018, 4:38 pm

blitzkrieg wrote:
What are people thinking when they want to censor everything because it is perceived to be offensive - especially when it concerns history...?

When all political parties, save few, engage in supporting the restriction of free-speech laws, speech itself is their enemy.


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12 Oct 2018, 5:13 pm

VegetableMan wrote:
Mythos wrote:
I understand your concerns are valid, but in reality there is no definition of free speech that satisfies all. Personally, I don't think as an example Nazism should be protected but some people regard censoring neonazi lies and slander as "free speech". Is it, though? Not in my opinion; it's a hate crime and misinformation, both of which need to be stamped out posthaste.

There are many examples we could discuss but you likely understand my point. Free speech is more or less just a myth peddled by people who like to spew hateful rhetoric or protect an assumed right to be cyberbullies.

I know there's more to it than that, but I get the impression this is the majority thought process.



Hate speech is not a crime, nor is misinformation. I certainly understand your sentiments, and I wish there weren't so many ignorant, bigoted bastards around. But the first Amendment protects all speech, regardless of how vile it may be. That's the price of living in a free society. We have to put with everyone's opinions, even if we find them objectionable. Once we start determining which speech is acceptable or not, then we ae on a nonstop course to total fascism.


The antidote to hate speech is not censorship; it's a counter argument.

^^^^
This
The first amendment does not protect you from consequences of your speech. If the consequeneces of your speech is being a victim of a crime the perpetrator should be procescuted. Punching Nazis in the face is satisfying emotionally. While the Nazis deserve to be punched in the face and a lot more their rights are bieng directly violated if the government arrests him for his Nazi speech. If the government fails to procescute people violently attacking Nazis the are failing to do what they were sworn in to do protect their constitutional rights.


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Mythos
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13 Oct 2018, 5:47 am

VegetableMan wrote:
Mythos wrote:
I understand your concerns are valid, but in reality there is no definition of free speech that satisfies all. Personally, I don't think as an example Nazism should be protected but some people regard censoring neonazi lies and slander as "free speech". Is it, though? Not in my opinion; it's a hate crime and misinformation, both of which need to be stamped out posthaste.

There are many examples we could discuss but you likely understand my point. Free speech is more or less just a myth peddled by people who like to spew hateful rhetoric or protect an assumed right to be cyberbullies.

I know there's more to it than that, but I get the impression this is the majority thought process.



Hate speech is not a crime, nor is misinformation. I certainly understand your sentiments, and I wish there weren't so many ignorant, bigoted bastards around. But the first Amendment protects all speech, regardless of how vile it may be. That's the price of living in a free society. We have to put with everyone's opinions, even if we find them objectionable. Once we start determining which speech is acceptable or not, then we ae on a nonstop course to total fascism.


The antidote to hate speech is not censorship; it's a counter argument.
True enough, but if speech encourages violence then the pragmatic thing to do would be to prevent such speech rather than wait until it genuinely reaches a violent conclusion.



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13 Oct 2018, 6:48 am

I think we need to be crystal clear as to what constitutes hate speech. Calls to violence should definitely fall under that category, as should Holocaust denial/defense.

Should Bible verses such as Leviticus 18:22 or 1 Corinthians 14:34 (and similar verses in the Quran) fall under the hate speech category. Should opposition to Israel be considered anti-semitism (and opposition to Palestine considered Islamophobia)?


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Mythos
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13 Oct 2018, 6:55 am

Tim_Tex wrote:
I think we need to be crystal clear as to what constitutes hate speech. Calls to violence should definitely fall under that category, as should Holocaust denial/defense.

Should Bible verses such as Leviticus 18:22 or 1 Corinthians 14:34 (and similar verses in the Quran) fall under the hate speech category. Should opposition to Israel be considered anti-semitism (and opposition to Palestine considered Islamophobia)?
It's a matter of examination versus action, I think. If one is led to pursue beliefs and subsequently lead their lives based on such beliefs, assuming they are damaging in some way, then yes they should be classified as hate speech.

Controversially, I'm of the opinion that pretty much all holy books should be classified as hate speech but can you imagine, especially in America, the kind of reaction that would garner?



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15 Oct 2018, 2:56 am

I’m a free speech absolutist when it comes to government censorship, but US right wingers these days constantly cry when they are merely socially shunned.



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15 Oct 2018, 7:08 am

Trump to abrogate your right to free speech, freedom of assembly, and right to petition your government for redress of grievances.



AspieUtah
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15 Oct 2018, 7:33 am

Piobaire wrote:
Trump to abrogate your right to free speech, freedom of assembly, and right to petition your government for redress of grievances.

And how will he do this without 2/3 or 3/4 of the various states? This is exactly why the constitutional amendment process is extremely detailed and tedious. Whether we are talking about the First, Second or other amendments, they simply can't be tossed aside without years, decades or even centuries to ratify.

In other words, he is either functionally delusional or yanking your chain. Move on to more likely matters.


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