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Pepe
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24 Oct 2018, 5:17 am

HighLlama wrote:
Pepe wrote:
Personally I have profound doubts about him echoing Nazi Philosophy...


He can't echo it, since he came first.


Yes, I know...

It was autistic license...
And quantum mechanics in play... :mrgreen:


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24 Oct 2018, 6:08 am

LoveNotHate wrote:
1. reject moral codes, especially dogmatic moral codes.

He even calls himself an "immoralist".

To an extent I have to agree with him, and for the following reasons:

When public morality reaches too far and too legalistically into your interior you get imbalanced by it and pragmatic issues that you really need to take care of, for your own health and development, don't get addressed. If you don't face your own darkness you're a slave to it because you've disowned and as such disowning it doesn't eliminate it or destroy it, rather that just sets up a fifth column of sorts within you and as you can't even see it's activity due to the repression it builds its own sort of guile and secondary intelligence that, if better integrated, you wouldn't be fomenting a devil within. An organized way in which the ancient world used to handle such things was initiatic rights. We don't have that anymore somewhat to our detriment.

LoveNotHate wrote:
A favorite motto of his: "Become what you are."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friedrich_Nietzsche

Are you a flaming racist? Then [b]be who you are, and join NAZI groups.

That last bit sounds like people taking Aleister Crowley's 'Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law' as 'do whatever the heck feels right in the moment' - which it wasn't anything of the kind. They're both, Nietzsche and Crowley, saying essentially that you should be guided by your telos of if we want to use more new-agey language your 'higher self' rather than society's demand for absolute subjugation to conformity from the practical level all the way down to a long list of shibboleths and fetishes which strangely the later people seem to care even more about than the practical. There's a lineage of western and near-eastern mystery and wisdom traditions, 2500+ years as such, that would fully support what they're saying.

I think it's arguable as well that if someone's a devout racist that's not 'them' per say, it's a big problem they need to solve for all kinds of even just practical reasons when it comes down to it.


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24 Oct 2018, 10:07 am

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j60ClcNYWu4

"Nature Changes Now
Records Stay The Same
Hunters And Gatherers
Have to Do Lists of
One
To Do…
i Either
Dance or Sing"
Just a little something i wrote back
in reply to a Poet Blogger Friend this
Morning; and i am sure Nietzche would agree
from his "Dionysian" Perspective at least that 'Life'
is not 'God' without Dance And Song in Free Association
of Creativity in Other Steps and Words of Dance and Song; Dancing and
Singing Without Rules and Regulations set Forth by Choir Directors as such
at Church
or Politics
or Philosophy School Alone.
It's not so much that 'This God' of Dance And Song is Dead Now
Within Human Beings Free in Creativity Expressing Art in Joy of LIfe
Freer; it is overall, more That so-called "Muslims" and "Christians" In Degrees
of those who Do Religion as Form Without any Essence of "Dance and Song" no
Longer Live As 'God' Free Within. No Doubt, "Nietzsche" Would totally "Get" what
i Just said; but let's face it as "Nietzsche" Agreed too; only a Tiny Number of Humans
Arise to a Capstone in Level Six of Maslow's Pyramid in Rise of Human Being Beyond
The First Five Floors of the Pyramid Rising to Self-Actualization to Beyond at Level Six in Ascending
Transcending Agape Love For 'All' (God) in Trust oF All Existence From Dark to Light and More as Abstract
Constructs
Still
come to
be; and if you will
note; i just improved
on what Maslow earlier
stated; as i am not here to
just repeat in Universal
Recurring Instance
of what is only
said before
now;
in other 'Worlds;' i get
tired of 'the same old dam phrases';
so, i come back with Different as i See
Life all about Human Potential out of the
Card Board Boxes in Homes of Humans who
have yet to move up to the 'Jefferson's East Side' yet
as that has just about nothing to do with increasing Material Goods
in
my World
For NoW at Least.
The 'Thing' is; not unlike "Nietzsche"; i get the Deeper 'Neo' Meanings Still Now
in the 'Hero' story of Jesus by whatever Innumerable 'Ghosts Writer's using Famous
Pen Names like Luke, Mark, John, and Matthew all came together Separately of what
Remains together now of the overall Edited and Revised Story of the Jesus Multi-Narrative
Story now; and i Can appreciate the 'Overman'/Neo Part of the Jesus Story too. But here's 'the
Thing'; We are Social Animals; And there is no Escaping those all Natural "Dionysian" Facts Either.
"No Man is an Island"; and that is also an ALL Natural Fact. It's True as i Do Prove too; one can and
WiLL Become Neo/Overman/Jesus/Buddha/Lao Tao/(and every other "Thousand and One" Version
of the Joseph Campbell Version of the Hero Archetype) but unless one finds some way to Integrate
Back into Society at Large of 'Minions' at Whole; Eventually one will more than Likely Disintegrate
too; whether through 'Crucifixion' or Embracing a Horse for you never found a Way to be totally
Human
Loving
in Some
way with others
in a 'Third Place'
of Life away from
Work and Home as Dr.
Ray Oldenburg, one of my
Sociology Professors, Championed
as 'Ted Danson' From A Bar where even
Modern Nietzsche's will find a way to be Called 'Norm'.

It's not enough for me to Read a Bible;
I write one almost 8 times as Large now.

It's not enough for me to Write the Former
1.8 Million Word Limit of the Longest Epic
Long Form Poem Written by Innumerable
Folks over in India; over Centuries like
that Old Bible in King James Version too.

True; I do 3.5 times more in 5 years too.

It's not enough for me to Dance one night
A Week at A Bar Full of Dionysian Intoxicated Folks.

i Dance at Catholic Church in the Back Row Amongst
The Living Dead of God Within while Children Dance with me With God Living Within.

And sure; I do it 10,000 Miles in 5 Years too; As Free Style Martial Arts and Ballet in
A Deep Red State Public of 'Good Old Boys' With the Force of Leg Pressing still about
a Half-A-Compact Car in Pounds of 1020 at 52 Reps at 240 LBs of Ballet Muscle Now at age 58.

And Hell no; i'm not just a Statue Sculpted by Michelangelo in Artistic Form; i do the Essence New
in Art now too; Clothed enough or not Clothed at all too; where Legally Accepted as Art now too For Real.

I've Sung With Many Southern Baptist Gospel Singers in Many Audiences of those Events and by 'God', Yes;
as Sam Harris, a most Famous Atheist Does Agree; those Folks do attain an Ascendent Transcendent
State of Being Now Similar to what Sam Gets from Meditation; when Nature as God Awakens in him
more to Fulfill his Human Potentials too in ways of 'Transient Hypo-Frontality'; and for those who
Master that State of Being Within With Relative Free Will In Bio-Feedback Practice of Achieving
this State of Higher Being Within; Those are the Relative Masters of Heaven Now and Before who achieve
An 'Autotelic' State of Being to be as Happy as they Like; Enjoying the Yang of Dark too, with the Yin of Light Free.
It's sort of like what Nietzsche said; the 'Apes' don't Understand the 'Humans'; but Nice Humans Will Love to Light
the 'Apes' up to 'Overman Status'. Nietzsche Understood the 'Apes' 'Need' their Version of Religion and God too just
to Survive. And to Be Clear; 'Real Apes' are Much SmARTer than this for 'they' are not 'clothed' away from Nature Now
As 'God' with
Tools that
Make them
More Machine than 'Human';
Same 'Reason' why most 'Apes' don't understand
the Essence of "Crowley's Teachings" that at core
are the same as the Deeper Jesus Story for 'those'
'eyes' and 'ears' to 'see' For Just another 'Golden Rule'
and 'A Great Work of Life' too that is also just another
Way of Saying 'Overman' Life and John 14:12 too; Life is Good
When
We
Do
Something New.
The Great 'Thing' about Records
is; 'People like Me' Can and Will Still
Listen and Hear and actually See Folks
Like Nietzsche and Jesus and Buddha and
Lao Tao and Actually Do them too More and Greater
Just to Give and Share as Integrated With ALL (God) No Greater Than a Grain of Sand;
JusT 'Think', 'See', 'Hear', and Do 'ALL' the Advantages that Free and Broadly Accessible
Knowledge and Art of All who Came Before Do as Readily Available Now at Our Finger Tips;
For it is True; Now, if there are Mo More Beethoven's or Michelangelo's or Nietzsche's For Real;
That Fault
is only
A Lack
of Trying Harder
And Never Giving up
Than They Did Then Now.
Jesus F in Christ; one Can and
Will Do it even Without a Slave Master of a 'Middle Man' now.
These are the Best of Days For Those Who Do Do The Best of Days Now.

God Is A Creative SpArk Living iN All Existence Creative Now Actually Doing 'IT' Now.

Some Modern Christians/Muslims Basically Killed A Bottom Level of
That Spirit of Creativity in Pyramid Rising to A Capstone Top when 'They'
Forced the Legs of Women Closed; And Chopped off the Middle part of 'Apollo'
And Within Other Similar Gods
And Goddesses As Human as God too.

Anyway; if anyone wants to Understand Nietzsche Better; Wiki straightens
out all the Misconceptions that have Been Suggested in 'This Thread' if one has
the Will and
Focus to
Even Search
The Link to Read it.

i'LL Help Ya Out, For Now At Least.

Nietzche was/is A Genius With a 'Touch' of 'Madness';
And There is No such 'thing' as A Non-Creative Genius And Or God.

God Lives And Or Dies This Way Now Within All of Existence Now That Is.

And to Be Clear; this is a Monologue Directed at all and no one in Particular.

It's What Folks Like Nietzsche Do Best in Letters Never Expected to Be Received iN one Lifetime Now At Least.

Many 'People' Are Afraid of Genius; As Obviously 'IT' Is A 'Most' Different 'Thing' As 'Creativity' oF 'ALL' NoW;

Yes, Some Folks Are All Naturally Afraid of Different; And Sadly That Is A Major 'RoadBLock' to ALL (GOD) NoW.

APParently OverAll; 'God' Doesn't
See Fair
A Way
Some Humans See Fair;
Considering 'ALL'; No 'Big' Surprise to me.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friedrich_Nietzsche


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24 Oct 2018, 10:21 am

LoveNotHate wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Nietzche actually despised Antisemites, and it a tragedy that his writings were misused by his Antisemitic sister and brother-in-law.

It would be a contradiction of his philosophy for him to despise people for "becoming who they are".

That was his stated philosophy.

He goes around telling people, "Be who you are, don't be guided by morality".

So, he appreciates the racist, the NAZI, mass murderer, criminal for "being who they are", not despises them.


I think he had something more positive in mind.


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24 Oct 2018, 10:24 am

Nietzsche probably rolled in his grave because Hitler adulterated his idea of the Ubermensch (superman).



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24 Oct 2018, 12:59 pm

Pepe wrote:
LoveNotHate wrote:
The evil Sith in Star Wars are said to be adapted based on Nietzsche's philosophy.

1. Immoralist
2. "Be who you are"

You are completely detached from morality, and you put yourself above everything else

Image


I get the impression you think that being a "free spirit" or uberman means you are a completely self absorbed anti-social psychopath...
Even a psychopath has a choice and doesn't have to be an anti-social personality type...

Also, consider that there are social consequences to your actions...
You can't just behave anyway you want despite your personal lack of social parameters...

And you are also forgetting that different people have inherently unique personalities, meaning you can't make the assumption that everyone is going to gravitate to the dark side...(pun intended)...

Also, consider the atheist...
I suspect most "enlightened" atheists would embrace the concept that morality is essentially an arbitrary social convention with, at times, an inherent genetic predisposition towards what society would call a moral compass...

If you think about it, atheists have aspects of Nietzsche's "ubermen" too...
Move over Sith Lord... :mrgreen:

I have a relative that has gone to jail a few times for molesting children.

Nietzsche: "Be who you are, don't let GOD or man morality define you".

So, it's OK to be a child molester if that's who you are.


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24 Oct 2018, 1:27 pm

Nietzsche wasn't Pietzsche.



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24 Oct 2018, 3:05 pm

LoveNotHate wrote:
Pepe wrote:
LoveNotHate wrote:
The evil Sith in Star Wars are said to be adapted based on Nietzsche's philosophy.

1. Immoralist
2. "Be who you are"

You are completely detached from morality, and you put yourself above everything else

Image


I get the impression you think that being a "free spirit" or uberman means you are a completely self absorbed anti-social psychopath...
Even a psychopath has a choice and doesn't have to be an anti-social personality type...

Also, consider that there are social consequences to your actions...
You can't just behave anyway you want despite your personal lack of social parameters...

And you are also forgetting that different people have inherently unique personalities, meaning you can't make the assumption that everyone is going to gravitate to the dark side...(pun intended)...

Also, consider the atheist...
I suspect most "enlightened" atheists would embrace the concept that morality is essentially an arbitrary social convention with, at times, an inherent genetic predisposition towards what society would call a moral compass...

If you think about it, atheists have aspects of Nietzsche's "ubermen" too...
Move over Sith Lord... :mrgreen:

I have a relative that has gone to jail a few times for molesting children.

Nietzsche: "Be who you are, don't let GOD or man morality define you".

So, it's OK to be a child molester if that's who you are.


I seriously doubt he intended anything like that.


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24 Oct 2018, 3:18 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
I seriously doubt he intended anything like that.

Then he's an idiot.

He's going around saying things he doesn't mean.


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24 Oct 2018, 3:50 pm

LoveNotHate wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
I seriously doubt he intended anything like that.

Then he's an idiot.

He's going around saying things he doesn't mean.
He seriously hadn't meant one should become a pedophile or a genocidal maniac. He meant more like, if you believe you should be a philosopher, or fiction writer, or fire fighter, or President of the United States, then you should do everything in your power to achieve it. As he had never said something about becoming a child molester or Nazi strongman, then you can guess he had never intended anything as such.


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24 Oct 2018, 4:03 pm

Nietzsche was a crude thinker (although a brilliant writer) whose "philosophy" (he was actually more of an essayist in the tradition of Schopenhauer, Montaigne and Bacon than a philospher) was an elaborate psychological defense mechanism constucted to deal with his inferiority complex. He was a compulsive masturbator (even Wagner, his intellectual superior and one time friend told him he masturbated too much!), he was small, weedy and subject to constant ridicule and his physical condition bounded on invalidism. He was fond of prostitutes (no respectable woman would touch him) from whom he contracted the syphillis that ultimately killed him.


If you're interested in studying philosophy, take a quick course on Nietzsche (you HAVE TO be at least vaguely familiar with his writings) then ditch him and buy the works of Schopenhauer.

You're right in thinking that the anti-semitism claims are nonsense, however. He was vindicated by scholarship on that score many decades ago. It was his sister who sought to hijack his works for anti-semitic purposes while he was in an asylum living through his second childhood and incapable of defending himself. She later collaborated, I believe, with the Nazis - not his fault.



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24 Oct 2018, 4:11 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
LoveNotHate wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
I seriously doubt he intended anything like that.

Then he's an idiot.

He's going around saying things he doesn't mean.
He seriously hadn't meant one should become a pedophile or a genocidal maniac. He meant more like, if you believe you should be a philosopher, or fiction writer, or fire fighter, or President of the United States, then you should do everything in your power to achieve it. As he had never said something about becoming a child molester or Nazi strongman, then you can guess he had never intended anything as such.

A favorite motto of Nietzsche, taken from Pindar, reads: "Become what you are."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friedrich_Nietzsche

So Sociopaths should become what they are.
Child molesters should become what they are.
Serial Killers should become what they are.

You're saying the guy was such an idiot that he went around saying this, but that's not what he meant??

Nietzsche writes ... don't get hung up on morality, become who you are


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24 Oct 2018, 4:27 pm

I think what Kraichgauer is saying is that if someone who writes perhaps a bit crytically or open-endedly could be read in two different ways, one way that they're explaining something about a person's trandcendental aspirations and suggesting they should go with them, and another interpretation suggesting that everyone with a mental illness or addiction should take that problem out on society, unless they explicitly state that the later is what they mean it's safer to assume that they mean the former.

Also to say a heroin-addict shouldn't immediately put themselves in the ground or that a sadist shouldn't make a torture chamber out of his or her basement is really saying that a particular philosopher might not be for everyone (or at least not for anyone who'd turn their words in that direction). There are certain conceptual schema that are, lets say, highly salient and important to some types of people that might be harmful if someone else took up those same schema. In that sense they're ideas that are an absolute blessing for one kind of person to have and not helpful for another type of person. In that sense an idea might be very good in certain contexts but you might not consider it universally applicable.

The argument that child predators shouldn't go after children is an argument that not everyone should follow all of their urges. The unstated, and almost unneeded to be stated, is that there are consequences for said actions and the parent who wants to kill a child predator with their bare hands also has internal drives to act as such.


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24 Oct 2018, 4:38 pm

techstepgenr8tion wrote:
I think what Kraichgauer is saying is that if someone who writes perhaps a bit crytically or open-endedly could be read in two different ways, one way that they're explaining something about a person's trandcendental aspirations and suggesting they should go with them, and another interpretation suggesting that everyone with a mental illness or addiction should take that problem out on society, unless they explicitly state that the later is what they mean it's safer to assume that they mean the former.

Also to say a heroin-addict shouldn't immediately put themselves in the ground or that a sadist shouldn't make a torture chamber out of his or her basement is really saying that a particular philosopher might not be for everyone (or at least not for anyone who'd turn their words in that direction). There are certain conceptual schema that are, lets say, highly salient and important to some types of people that might be harmful if someone else took up those same schema. In that sense they're ideas that are an absolute blessing for one kind of person to have and not helpful for another type of person. In that sense an idea might be very good in certain contexts but you might not consider it universally applicable.

The argument that child predators shouldn't go after children is an argument that not everyone should follow all of their urges. The unstated, and almost unneeded to be stated, is that there are consequences for said actions and the parent who wants to kill a child predator with their bare hands also has internal drives to act as such.

The greatest consequence to Nietzsche appears to be not doing something, and consequently, not "becoming who you are" and living a "slave life" to morality or social/consequential concerns.


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24 Oct 2018, 4:41 pm

techstepgenr8tion wrote:
I think what Kraichgauer is saying is that if someone who writes perhaps a bit crytically or open-endedly could be read in two different ways, one way that they're explaining something about a person's trandcendental aspirations and suggesting they should go with them, and another interpretation suggesting that everyone with a mental illness or addiction should take that problem out on society, unless they explicitly state that the later is what they mean it's safer to assume that they mean the former.

Also to say a heroin-addict shouldn't immediately put themselves in the ground or that a sadist shouldn't make a torture chamber out of his or her basement is really saying that a particular philosopher might not be for everyone (or at least not for anyone who'd turn their words in that direction). There are certain conceptual schema that are, lets say, highly salient and important to some types of people that might be harmful if someone else took up those same schema. In that sense they're ideas that are an absolute blessing for one kind of person to have and not helpful for another type of person. In that sense an idea might be very good in certain contexts but you might not consider it universally applicable.

The argument that child predators shouldn't go after children is an argument that not everyone should follow all of their urges. The unstated, and almost unneeded to be stated, is that there are consequences for said actions and the parent who wants to kill a child predator with their bare hands also has internal drives to act as such.


Pretty much - - thanks. 8)


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24 Oct 2018, 4:44 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
techstepgenr8tion wrote:
I think what Kraichgauer is saying is that if someone who writes perhaps a bit crytically or open-endedly could be read in two different ways, one way that they're explaining something about a person's trandcendental aspirations and suggesting they should go with them, and another interpretation suggesting that everyone with a mental illness or addiction should take that problem out on society, unless they explicitly state that the later is what they mean it's safer to assume that they mean the former.

Also to say a heroin-addict shouldn't immediately put themselves in the ground or that a sadist shouldn't make a torture chamber out of his or her basement is really saying that a particular philosopher might not be for everyone (or at least not for anyone who'd turn their words in that direction). There are certain conceptual schema that are, lets say, highly salient and important to some types of people that might be harmful if someone else took up those same schema. In that sense they're ideas that are an absolute blessing for one kind of person to have and not helpful for another type of person. In that sense an idea might be very good in certain contexts but you might not consider it universally applicable.

The argument that child predators shouldn't go after children is an argument that not everyone should follow all of their urges. The unstated, and almost unneeded to be stated, is that there are consequences for said actions and the parent who wants to kill a child predator with their bare hands also has internal drives to act as such.


Pretty much - - thanks. 8)

The greatest consequence to Nietzsche appears to be not doing something, and consequently, not "becoming who you are" and living a "slave life" to morality or social/consequential concerns.


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