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HighLlama
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30 Oct 2018, 5:26 pm

Pepe wrote:
HighLlama wrote:
^^ It seems Hamlet illustrated many of those points, and quite comically.


Could you quote some?


I'll do my best :)

Quote:
- The morality that structured western society was predicated on the fundamental axiom of divinity.


Hamlet begins with one guard saying, "Who's there?" when he hears the other approaching in the darkness, right before their shift change. Some minor characters gather and discuss the ghost of Hamlet's father. This introduces the theme of moral authority, divine presence in the universe, and our personal roles in the world.

Quote:
- If there is no god, then anything is permitted.


Hinted at pretty well, since this couldn't be stated explicitly in Shakespeare's time if he wanted to. But in Act 3, Scene 1 Hamlet says the only reason we don't kill ourselves, due to life being so horrible, is our fear that there is a worse afterlife waiting for us. That is the endpoint of Nietzsche's statement that God is dead, since Hamlet is in many ways the superman facing a society of less aware (and less honest) people.

Quote:
- Morality turns into what you can get away with...


But, Shakespeare would never make it that black and white. Because, it's not Hamlet who gets away with anything--he causes many others to be killed, and himself dies. It's Claudius who gets away with killing his brother, and then becomes king. And we can't assume no one realizes it was murder, but they certainly realize it's best for them to say nothing. Hamlet can't ignore the crime, though seems to realize revenge is pointless and not in his character. Still, Claudius recreates the first murder, and is rewarded for it. Isn't that politics?

Quote:
- A rise of the state as an alternative to god...


Not sure what Hamlet says about that. Did Nietzsche really say that? The state has always been an alternative to God, either explicitly or implicitly by aligning itself with God. But, it's hard to imagine a society where everyone has very distinct, self-developed ideas of God.

Quote:
- Life is so unbearably cruel that it would have been better if it had never existed at all...


Hamlet's main issue is losing faith in his mother; discovering that the woman who made him has assisted with destroying the rules of society, God, and family, by being party to this murder. Though it's never stated, I feel he must also wonder if Claudius is really his father. Surely such a powerful affair didn't begin recently. Hamlet must question life and morality, but no matter how much he can define that for himself it doesn't change the corrupt society he's in. So he can't help but fixate on self-destruction. And surely the graveyard scene (5.1), when he says even Alexander the Great dies and turns to dust used to stuff a beer barrel, illustrates the futility you're mentioning.

Quote:
- If you loose faith in something, it makes it possible to loose faith in everything: Nihilism...


See my comment above about Hamlet and his mother. Interestingly, it's Claudius who prays, and Hamlet doesn't kill him at this moment, though he's given the chance. Does conscience stand in the way of realizing Nietzsche's ideal?

Quote:
- Christianity needed to be destroyed because it focused on the afterlife when people needed to focus on the here and now with all it's struggles...


I suppose Hamlet inverts this, since Hamlet's problem is not considered a problem by his society. And as long as we have to interact with others, our morals and goals must consider them to some extent. I feel like Shakespeare presented the inverse of what Nietzsche proposes to show the limitations of Nietzsche's point. But, I've only read The Birth of Tragedy and smaller bits and pieces. Still, Shakespeare seems to show the free, intelligent, aware superman and how that person still has to live in a world of other people who don't have to share those values, rendering the superman both ideal and pointless.

Quote:
- Totalitarian certainty is preferable to nihilistic chaos...


Claudius or Hamlet? Can you really pick?


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Pepe
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31 Oct 2018, 5:37 am


https://youtu.be/tE67Ye91Ii0

- For the past 2,000 yrs, the dominant morality in the west, according to Nietzsche, has been an anti-natural morality, which in his words, turns against the instincts of life...
- Two types of individuals:
1. The higher human beings...
2. Those who belong to the heard...
- Two main types of higher human beings:
1. Creative geniuses...
2. Higher humans hidden from public view...
- Higher human beings have a Unifying life project...
- The higher human needs solitude and freedom from the innumerable small and pitiable men...
- The concept of greatness entails being noble, wanting to be by oneself, being able to be different, standing alone and having to live independently...
- There is a solitude that is inaccessible to praise or blame, his own justice that is beyond appeal...
- The heard is comprised of two types:
1. The last man...
2. The slave...
- The last man is the quintessential mediocre man, striving solely for comfort and contentment, an end which makes him lazy and contemptible...devoid of any creative urge within...and blind to higher values which render creativity possible...
- The slave in contrast is a weak and sickly human being...who suffers from himself and suffers what Nietzsche calls ressentiment, a festering resentment of life generated by impotence in the face of external reality felt to be overpowering and threatening...
- The herd morality inverts the natural values of life...
- Revaluation of values to lessen the effect of herd morality on the development of higher men...
- Herd morality is not an objective or universal morality binding on all but is merely one type of human morality...
- The potential higher man must realise that the ideas of the herd should rule in the herd...but not reach beyond it...
- The higher man must not preach or impose his morality onto others...
- There exists a plethora of individuals who desire to persecute and bring down those who rise above the mediocre mass, masking their envy with calls for equality...
- Herd morality not only underpins socialist ideologies, the proponent which Nietzsche called socialist dolts and flatheads, who wished to bring the degeneration and diminution of man into the perfect herd animal, but also the social justice movements which threatened to engulf the western world with a new wave of herd morality through legislation and the transformation of institutions...
- Slave envy...If I can't have something, no one can have anything, no one is to be anything...


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Autistic/scout motto: "Give me a better argument and I will listen..."
"Hate me for who I am...Not for who you think I am..."
You have been weighed...you have been measured...and you have been found wanking...:P
"Honesty is not a social duty, not a sacrifice for the sake of others, but the most profoundly selfish virtue man can practice: his refusal to sacrifice the reality of his own existence to the deluded consciousness of others."
Truth may be inconvenient but it is never politically incorrect...The Oracle of Truth has spoken...8) I'm a rationalist...Deal with it...:mrgreen:


aghogday
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01 Nov 2018, 1:33 pm

Pepe wrote:

https://youtu.be/tE67Ye91Ii0

- For the past 2,000 yrs, the dominant morality in the west, according to Nietzsche, has been an anti-natural morality, which in his words, turns against the instincts of life...
- Two types of individuals:
1. The higher human beings...
2. Those who belong to the heard...
- Two main types of higher human beings:
1. Creative geniuses...
2. Higher humans hidden from public view...
- Higher human beings have a Unifying life project...
- The higher human needs solitude and freedom from the innumerable small and pitiable men...
- The concept of greatness entails being noble, wanting to be by oneself, being able to be different, standing alone and having to live independently...
- There is a solitude that is inaccessible to praise or blame, his own justice that is beyond appeal...
- The heard is comprised of two types:
1. The last man...
2. The slave...
- The last man is the quintessential mediocre man, striving solely for comfort and contentment, an end which makes him lazy and contemptible...devoid of any creative urge within...and blind to higher values which render creativity possible...
- The slave in contrast is a weak and sickly human being...who suffers from himself and suffers what Nietzsche calls ressentiment, a festering resentment of life generated by impotence in the face of external reality felt to be overpowering and threatening...
- The herd morality inverts the natural values of life...
- Revaluation of values to lessen the effect of herd morality on the development of higher men...
- Herd morality is not an objective or universal morality binding on all but is merely one type of human morality...
- The potential higher man must realise that the ideas of the herd should rule in the herd...but not reach beyond it...
- The higher man must not preach or impose his morality onto others...
- There exists a plethora of individuals who desire to persecute and bring down those who rise above the mediocre mass, masking their envy with calls for equality...
- Herd morality not only underpins socialist ideologies, the proponent which Nietzsche called socialist dolts and flatheads, who wished to bring the degeneration and diminution of man into the perfect herd animal, but also the social justice movements which threatened to engulf the western world with a new wave of herd morality through legislation and the transformation of institutions...
- Slave envy...If I can't have something, no one can have anything, no one is to be anything...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJ9rUzIMcZQ

i Suppose Nietzche Might Suggest That "Thus Spoke Zarathustra" Is A way Away From Ideology As All
Human Metaphors of Words Come to be Ideology; That Is Oxymoron, Most ironically at core.
As of course it is only Ideology for That Is What 'Song' Does Removed From 'Dance' Enhancing Life
More, Overall; Truly, An Only way to Escape Ideology is to Do Life Without Words and attempt
An Ideology to Express What is Truly Real Within That Can And Will only be expressed through
Ideology; so Just Dance; Just Be A God Who Dances Now Part as Whole For Those Who 'See' and 'Hear'
the Music
of
God
(All)
Within.

But; who the Hell is gonna Understand an "Overman" around 'these pArts', heHe; when one has
not even escaped the Black and White to the Colors of Dance/Song that Brings Essence to the
Forms of Ideology Expressing the Cosmos as Whole (God) Within. Creativity Makes
Life More interesting; Nietzche Gets The Truth With that; at Least;

As It's True; As 'He' Seems to Agree It iS A Dance of
Life too; That Makes Might Right With NO
Words at all; too as True; Perhaps too.

And that Brings me to Freddie Mercury as
Free Association in Free Verse Existence Will;
Freddie; Somewhat of a 'Gay Parsi' with No Slight
Intended for Sexual Orientation as Gay for Literally
Mercurially Spirited by Nature Other Wise too for Real;
Yes, 'Parsi' is a Term for "A Member of the larger of the
two Zoroastrian communities in South Asia and India; As
The present-day Parsi's descend from a group of Persian
Zoroastrians who immigrated to South Asia during 8th
century AD due to persecution in post-Islamic Iran";
Paraphrased somewhat from Wiki Sources too;
But What About the Zoroastrian Originating
'Freddie' As Zoroaster is Just Another
Name for 'Thus Spoke Zarathustra', too
As that Applies to what Many Religious
Scholars Suggest is an Origin Religion of Abrahamic
Religions in the Middle East that is surely Vaulted Versus
the Current Religious 'Children' Dominating the Earth and
Hoping Eternal Torture of Souls Rather than Salvation For All
With Highest Respect for the Ecosystem at Hand; yes, a Rather
Ecological God of Respect That 'Mazdian' God of all by Zoroaster
Comes to be in Fruition by that So-Called Prophet of that/this Nature ALL too.

Anyway; Let's (me at least) Look at Freddie Mercury As An Example of an 'Overman' whose
Life Ended in Tragedy like Nietzsche's Life too; but hey; we all gotta go someday now
anyway; and 45 for Mercury and 56 for Nietzsche ain't that Bad; Particularly for
Mercury as that Dude Lived More Than a Thousand Lifetimes in One Life Than
Most Folks Can/Will imagine And Thousands More in Terms of the Lives He
Touched and Inspired For Life. And did he care that he was the outlier
among most; hell no; hell no; he did not; And Hell no; a rather
Unattractive Appearance did not stop him from Being
Fabulous And Loved by Millions of People as
Still a Champion of Love and Rock
And Roll now; True; that
Dude was a lot
more Like
Jesus and
Free and Wild
Not Afraid; than even 'That Story' Tales; Fearless
IN ACTUAL DO TO Be who ever the F he wanted to
Be next. And as far as The Creative Spirit of the Cosmos
as Housed in Human Being; it just doesn't still get much
Better than Freddie Mercury in the Flesh. 'Farrokh Bulsara';
what an Interesting Name for a Person of Indian and Iranian
Heritage; and more Specifically a Tribe of 'Parsi' from Iran/Persia
Escaping Muslim Persecution back in the 8th Century or so to the
Sub-Continent of India then. And Sadly as His Family Moved to Zanzibar
away from India, where he was born in Zanzibar that Island Cashes in on his
Success; but Religiously Persecutes who he was as a Human Being; Smiles, no Surprise;
When Money (Trumpian) is more Important Than Love As Being Human. Freddie Mercury didn't need
Nietzche then to be an 'Overman' anymore than any other 'Prophet' who Brings Folks out of Stifling
Traditions Against Human Freedoms; to Do More in Human Freedoms Actually Wilder and Set Free.
Was Mercury A Pagan; Heaven, Yes;
And Troubled; Well Hell yes; not
Unlike "Bohemian Rhapsody" and
The Reality of a Life where he
Would Not Be Accepted
Where he was born
but for who he
came to Be';
But
Prostituted
as a Human Being
Dead to make Money off of; no
Matter then if they would throw
away the Key in a Lifelong Prison
for his Freedom to Just Be Him Alive
And Love All He DeSired too as He surely did
Until the Tragic End. True; not Every one Makes
A Song "We Are the Champion's" of Love And A "We Will Rock
YOU" too; just by the Intro of the Stomping of Freedom Feet that
Spells Wild and Free; JusT to Be A 'Dance and Song' of WhoEver We CoMe to Be.
'God Forbid'
A Human
Who is
Never
Brave Enough
to Be Who They Truly
Are in Self-Actualizing
And Ascending Transcending
Love For All; Yes, 'God Forbid', Except
For Ignorant Religions That/Who Cannot/Will Not 'See'
a REAL 'Saoshyant Savior' (Overman) When He Comes to Be
In Flesh And Blood Free As Will All Will Do When Authentic Loving Free.
Not Unlike 'God';
That Dude Had/Has
A Real Lust And Love For Life;
Real; Out of Book Speak/Do; Then/Now too.

Either We Really Live Or Do
Not Really Live When We Live;

It's 'Really'
As Simple
And Complex As That/This:

SMiLes.. Well.. 'Winston' is
Teleporting Online
Unwittingly So..
While the
Rest of Us
See Him
And Even Speak
About Winston too..
His Travels continue
In Dreams He’ll Never See..
And Always
Now Be A
Bit of
Real Magic Now
Uploading A Dog’s Soul..;)

(Just A 'Little' Something i Wrote/Write About 'A Dog';
i'm Not Sure If An Owner (Woman/Mother) Understood
It or Not; But
it Doesn't 'Really Matter'
In A Longer Run For NoW)

And Just a Note of Additional 'Trivia'; That 'Bohemian Rhapsody'
Music Video Is Still Considered A Progenitor of 'MTV' and all 'Its Children'.
IT Would Be A bit Of A Stretch to Suggest That Freddie Did Not Lend A Hand (Voice) In 'ProCreation' too;
Yes, tHere Is More Than One Way to Help Create 'Children' too; Every 'Real Artist' Feels And Senses This too.


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Pepe
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01 Nov 2018, 7:20 pm

This the end of my study into Nietzsche for the time being...

There are some glaring differences between his philosophy and my own, the main one is his obsessive commitment to this life system...

Funnily enough, I had the same thing to say about Jordan Peterson...
Ironically enough, I could say that Nietzsche's philosophy is also infected by the drive to find some inherent meaning in life as a result of cultural influences, even though it might be an intellectual existential need...
I guess I have too much Nihilism in my weltanschauung...<shrug>

According to Nietzsche, I would be classified as part ubermensch (a hidden higher human) and part slave...
I am happy to be a healthy mongrel, thank you very much Mr Nietzsche...<chuckle>

I might have more to say, but as I have indicated, this class is dismissed... :wink:


_________________
I'm not here to change the world...There isn't a big enough soiled nappy bin... ;)
Autistic/scout motto: "Give me a better argument and I will listen..."
"Hate me for who I am...Not for who you think I am..."
You have been weighed...you have been measured...and you have been found wanking...:P
"Honesty is not a social duty, not a sacrifice for the sake of others, but the most profoundly selfish virtue man can practice: his refusal to sacrifice the reality of his own existence to the deluded consciousness of others."
Truth may be inconvenient but it is never politically incorrect...The Oracle of Truth has spoken...8) I'm a rationalist...Deal with it...:mrgreen:


aghogday
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01 Nov 2018, 8:36 pm

^^^
Winks;
Feel Free
To Bow..;)


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Pepe
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02 Nov 2018, 2:31 am

<bow> :mrgreen:


_________________
I'm not here to change the world...There isn't a big enough soiled nappy bin... ;)
Autistic/scout motto: "Give me a better argument and I will listen..."
"Hate me for who I am...Not for who you think I am..."
You have been weighed...you have been measured...and you have been found wanking...:P
"Honesty is not a social duty, not a sacrifice for the sake of others, but the most profoundly selfish virtue man can practice: his refusal to sacrifice the reality of his own existence to the deluded consciousness of others."
Truth may be inconvenient but it is never politically incorrect...The Oracle of Truth has spoken...8) I'm a rationalist...Deal with it...:mrgreen: