[A learner's personal diary] Social skills & NT interaction

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SomewhatGeekyPolyglot
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10 Nov 2018, 1:58 pm

Hi everyone,
there is something I'd like to share with you if there is some interest.
It is a learner's personal diary (written by someone called Somewhat Geeky Polyglot :)) related to social skills and interacting with NTs. While not using any particular label for myself ;), I am among the persons with neurodiversity, i.e. I am not an NT at all.

For some time, I have been writing that diary. And I am very happy to say that there was some non-insignificant progress even. It is about communication, patterns of behavior, certain ways of both spoken and written speech, avoiding at least some misunderstandings, and about reading between the lines. It also is about the interaction between persons like us (or more specifically, those of us with neurodiversity, because there are others, too) and neurotypicals. In it, I mentioned things like how it sometimes can be possible for both groups to make a halfway handshake, i.e. both meeting each other halfway, coming a bit closer to each other, and understanding the other group's perspectives.

I am still continuing to learn about All Things Communication, but the first new milestone already has been reached ;).

Just wanted to add that even if it is about one particular person's learning progress, that doesn't mean at all that others couldn't comment on it :). (Double negation... i.e. you definitely can comment on it).

So I just like to know if at least some of you are interested, then I simply would like to start posting it in this thread.



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10 Nov 2018, 2:26 pm

Welcome to WrongPlanet,

I'm sure your thoughts about those subjects will be most welcome; I'd certainly be interested. I think that it's all too easy for us to fall into polarised thinking; that learning how to interact with "NTs" is impossible, that we have the right to insist everyone does things our way all the time, or that masking has to be taken to the extreme of doing everything entirely the "NT way". I agree with you completely that it is a matter of compromise according to the situation, and that learning those techniques can be beneficial when used wisely, so long as they're never forced on anyone.


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SomewhatGeekyPolyglot
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10 Nov 2018, 3:27 pm

Glad to hear that there is some interest :).
And thank you for the welcome, too.
So I think I will start posting my diary's content very soon.

I possibly wouldn't do it in the exact chronological order, because some things turned out to be even more important than others in the hindsight.
But still, I think that also the (previous) learning progress would remain rather clear even that way. In addition, I fully do intend to include some more thoughts that I never have written down up to now.

Just wanted to mention one more thing before starting... (what I am about to say now isn't related to any particular person). It simply is something that I consider to be very useful when someone is acting as (sort of) a bridge between persons with neurodiversity and others. I hope that nothing I am writing sounds as even the slightest self-praise... we simply are persons who are inclined towards factual statements sometimes :). But I consider myself one of those who really could act as sort a bridge between the two groups because of myself having realized (and also having learned the hard way :) ) that the perception of those two groups on a number of things can greatly differ sometimes.

So what I would like to emphasize is that this whole diary (and also any follow-up of any of you) should be about analyzing communication, about stating patterns of behavior and so on. It isn't intended by myself to be any "right or wrong" discussion, because in this particular thread, I really like to focus here on what we all have in common, rather than on some differences.

For the purpose of explaining why I really prefer that approach:
We do not all have the same POVs (point of views) about everything.
This is both related to the difference between "neurodiversical persons" and others, and also to the various POVs related to what is called weltanschauung even in English, and so on. That word means "point of view on the world", but in a very broad sense.

If we would start any "right or wrong" discussion in this thread about the different POVs of persons with neurodiversity and persons without it, there could be several unwelcome side-effects. One of them could be that people belonging to any of those groups could get a false impression of those belonging to the other group. I really wouldn't want to trigger any reactions like "neurotypicals are stubborn" or "persons with neurodiversity are stubborn".

And also I wouldn't want to trigger any discussion about "right or wrong" like "It is fully appropriate to always tell anyone what is on your mind!" - "No, it isn't! You have to stick to politeness even if it includes lying!" - "No, this cannot be done at all, you are stupid!" - "Sure, you are even required to do so, jerk!".

(I only mentioned this because of pointing out what would be an unwelcome outcome.)

So to sum up, while I do have my own POVs on these and other subjects, I do not even intend to mention any of them in this thread. Even if I am the one who started it, and even if I am the one who wrote that personal learner's diary. Because of that reason, I also really would prefer if we (i.e. all of us) would avoid any of those POV related discussions in this thread.

I do think that if we focus on some particular things only, like "this is a situation that can feel comfortable/uncomfortable for some, because of this and that reason", then this really could support Aiming for the Best Communication Experience Possible.

:idea: And in case there would be any ambiguity in this post of mine :D, any useful contribution is very welcome, no matter if it is being done by someone with the background that many of us share, or by a neurotypical (NT) person.



Last edited by SomewhatGeekyPolyglot on 10 Nov 2018, 5:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

SomewhatGeekyPolyglot
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10 Nov 2018, 4:54 pm

Some of my learning diary's entries are very short, some are long, and others, again, are something in between.

As for this particular one, it really is rather long :).

And as for the questions mentioned in it, they serve more than one purpose.

So here you go ;):

Pattern of behavior: Considering Things As What They Seem At First Glance

Many people simply take a short look at something, and then they consider things to be what they seem at first glance. This doesn't even include looking at the whole situation and the bigger picture.

Now it is very clear that often, things can simply seem to be something they aren't in reality.
This pattern isn't at all about that "it seems to be this and that" part.

But it is about the approach of the people who have this specific pattern of behavior. They are basically thinking, "it seems to be like this, so I simply say that this is the truth about this matter until the opposite has been proven".

An example would be what I one day read somewhere on the Internet. Someone mentioned that when others talk to him in a language that he doesn't understand, he assumes that it is an insult. But he made it very clear that by "assuming" he doesn't mean "knowing that there is a high probability (like 70% or 80%) that it really was an insult, while also acknowledging that possibly that person spoke in another language for one out of several other reasons".

(Side note: It is rather obvious that at least in very many situations, there wouldn't even be such a thing as a 70% probability of foreign words being an insult...)

Instead, he used the term "assuming" for "considering those foreign language words as an insult because they seem to be one at first glance, then saying that the truth about this matter simply is that the other person offended him until the opposite has been proven, and also acting on his "knowledge" of being insulted by insulting the other person himself or even spitting in his face etc.".

For those who consider this pattern (Considering Things As What They Seem At First Glance) as something that simply all humans would do: It surely is very wide-spread. But not everyone does it the same way. There are people, too, who would rather think, "It seems to be like this, so in several situations, I would do certain things because of the high possibility that it really is like this. Nevertheless, I am not at all considering my first impression as the truth about this matter until the opposite has been proven. This is because I never got any certainty about it in the first place. And without certainty, I cannot call it the truth".

I do know that these explanations can be a bit verbosity-dense sometimes, in addition to also being somehow compact at the same time. If what I wrote didn't make sense to some of those who are reading it, they simply can tell me so that I would rephrase it or explain it some more. As I said, I do not intend this thread to be a monologue. And even if it (theoretically) was one, it would still be very important to me that everything can be understood by all of you.

Questions:
What are the reasons and motivations of those who have this pattern of behavior, i.e. Considering Things As What They Seem At First Glance? What are their reasons for considering them to be what they seem at first glance, rather than acknowledging that even if they got a certain impression, there are many things they cannot be sure about until taking a closer look at them?

What are their reasons for considering their first impression as "the truth until the opposite has been proven" and also acting on what they call "certainty", as in the case of someone who would be "certain that he has been insulted until the opposite has been proven" and then insult the other person himself or even spit into his face, rather than acknowledging that even if there is a high probability and he possibly needs to do some (other) actions because of it, this still isn't the same as being certain? (Just in case anybody would get me wrong right now: I neither like the idea of insulting someone back even if he himself said something that certainly was an insult, nor the idea of spitting... ).



SomewhatGeekyPolyglot
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10 Nov 2018, 5:01 pm

Pattern of behavior: Considering An Apology That Also Contains A Partial Justification As Insincere

Some people would apologize to someone who has been hurt by them, but at the same time also include a partial justification of what they did. They possibly could do so because they wanted to clarify that, while they truly feel sorry for what has been caused by their actions, even if they weren't aware of the possible consequences, it also wasn't entirely black/white-ish.

Among their reasons for doing so is:

- They want to remind others that there are people who perceive some things differently than they do. If they wouldn't try to remind them, it also could appear that they (i.e. the persons apologizing to other persons) did something much more severe than what they actually did. So they'd also like to make that clear.

- They also could want to remind others that, while they fully acknowledge that they could have done things in a better way, the others also could try to be more aware of the fact that not everyone sticks to every single of those "Wide-Spread Common Sense Ideas That Nobody Could Even Theoretically Have A Different Perception On". In addition to the fact that not everyone even is aware of all of them.

Again, this diary is about analyzing communication and factual statements, not about even trying to offend anyone by anything that (theoretically) could be hidden between the lines (but it isn't). One of my most major reasons for even starting it was and still is that there are many things I either need to learn or need to learn more about them. And one of my most major motivations for doing so is that I do care about the feelings of others, too.

Some more reasons for some people possibly combining an apology with a partial justification?

And what about some reasons for "why do many people consider an apology of that type as insincere"?

Again, even if I am repeating myself (but I couldn't expect everyone reading any post of this thread to also read the first post, too), this isn't about "right or wrong" discussions, but about taking a close look at communication, even about taking something like a not-too-far-from-microscopical look at it, too.



SomewhatGeekyPolyglot
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10 Nov 2018, 5:03 pm

Pattern of behavior: Considering All The World A Stage

Some people consider all the world a stage. (This also is a quote from a fictional Shakespearean character called Jaques...). They would be in an "actor/actress mode" all the time. And this also has certain consequences, including, but not limited to, a very fake-ish attitude, speaking of some of them.

But as usual, any discussion about whether this behavior is right or wrong is outside of the scope of this log. It is only about describing certain aspects of communication.

Questions:

- What are the possible reasons of those who consider all the world a stage and who are something like "24/7 actors" even when it comes to their private lives?

- What are the possible reasons of those who entirely abandon thoughts like considering all the world a stage?

- What are the possible reasons of those who do something in between?



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10 Nov 2018, 5:05 pm

A pattern related to non-verbal interactions: Always Seeming To Be Staring When Looking At Anyone

Even if not everyone would believe it, there are people who always would seem to be staring when looking about anyone, even if it is about (it should go without saying that I am not implying anything beyond my very literal words right now) keeping eye contact only because of having a conversation.

This is because some people are (even if it could sound kinda strange) unable to use any other "gaze" (could also be a bit of a misnomer, thus using quotation marks, I mean the "way of looking at someone").

What can those people do to clarify those matters? It wouldn't be that easy to tell every person they meet on any occasion something like, "this is the only way I am able to look at anyone". In addition, this also easily could be misinterpreted as ... something.

And what can those being "stared on" do to realize that such a "gaze" doesn't necessarily mean what they commonly would associate with it?



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10 Nov 2018, 5:07 pm

Pattern of behavior related to the present time: Battle Rap and Diss Tracks

As usual, I am writing about any of those Communication Related Sub Topics because of taking an in-depth look at them, and because of their connection to the language I am currently learning more about, just like a learner of any other language sometimes would do it. (If you are curious, that language simply is called communication.)

There are some persons who do what is called Battle Rap.
One of them could say something like,
"You are nothing but a north pole refrigerator.
But I am your power source terminator". :roll:

Then another one could answer saying,
"I can freeze you with a really incredible ease.
You should only say two times pretty please." :roll:

Any track containing something like this is called a Diss Track.

- Why (= for what reasons) do they feel themselves wanting to do it, or even needing to do it?

- Why don't they simply ignore any diss track that verbally attacks them instead of answering by insulting back in the form of yet another diss track?

In addition... did you all realize why I sometimes would explain that by asking a "why" question, I mean "for what reasons"? As for me, I of course know why I am doing it. But I am not sure if all of you understand my motivation too, because it isn't a secret at all that "why" means "for what reason/reasons". Any reply about that would be entirely On Topic and Directly Related to All Things Communication.



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10 Nov 2018, 5:08 pm

Whenever I post something new, I do it for the purpose of continuing. But that doesn't mean at all that you cannot refer to previous posts.



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11 Nov 2018, 1:20 pm

Cultural pattern: Not Drinking Tea Without Sugar And Also Not Wanting Others To Do So In Front Of Them, Or Even When One Is Alone, Too


This one is a pattern related to culture (although it also can be about one's personal taste only).

For those of you who just might be a bit unfamiliar with this diary :), it is all about optimizing communication. This includes trying to know the exact reasons for a great multitude of behavioral and cultural patterns. Needless to say (or maybe not needless to some of you :)), this diary isn't about offending anyone, including, but not limited to, those of you who dislike drinking tea without sugar.

The above title consists of three parts:
Not Drinking Tea Without Sugar
And Also Not Wanting Others To Do So In Front Of Them,
Or Even When One Is Alone, Too (this one means that some even dislike the idea of anyone whom they know drinking tea without sugar while they are absent)

What are the possible rather exact and precise reasons for any of this, beyond simply saying "it is because of culture"?

And what can those who prefer drinking tea without sugar do when they (at least theoretically) would still think that they have a reason to do so in front of others who dislike it?



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11 Nov 2018, 7:25 pm

Pattern of behavior: Adapting to whatever culture one is born into
And an important clarification related to this diary's intended purposes

[a user] wrote:
A lot of things we think of as "NT" behavior are actually culture-dependent.

What NT's are actually good at is adapting to whatever culture they happen to have been born into.

So, if we can somehow manage to build an autistic-friendly culture, NT's would have no trouble adapting to that, as well.


[another user] wrote:
Yes, this is very interesting. Maybe this could be made into a definition of "NT" behavior.


I didn't add anything else in order to explain this pattern of behavior, because the first quote already did so.

And as for myself, whenever I speak about any of those patterns, I would call them patterns of human behavior only. This is because even if persons with neurodiversity and those without differ from each other in certain aspects, there still can be a not-so-small behavioral overlap.

As for my Communication Skills Learner's Diary (the thread you are reading right now :)), one of its major goals definitely is to contribute something that can support the mutual understanding between those two groups. Even if we cannot do something that helps every neurodiversical and neurotypical person in The Whole World understand each other better, that still doesn't mean at all that we cannot do anything that helps at least some or even many persons of the two groups come closer to each other. And as for this learner's diary in particular, I think we shouldn't forget that it's not just about those who read it themselves.

It can be, too, about all of those who maybe never would even visit WP, but they still would hear about some of the topics mentioned in this diary by others who read them themselves. And as we know ;) (no offense for anyone intended, including NTs), sometimes NTs tend to talk a lot to each other about just any kind of news :o ;). So if some neurotypical persons read something in this diary that really was interesting to them, too, then there is hope that they will spread the word among themselves. On the long run, some ideas that explain some false neurodiversity related cliches and stereotypes could even go "viral" :D. Smiling because of happiness, but not at all kidding.

Having said that, I should also point out once again that this thread, while it contains a personal learner's diary, isn't meant at all to be a one-man effort. Also, I am not mainly doing it for myself. I surely like the idea of advancing even more with my own communication skills. But my main motivation for continuing to write it after the first new milestone already has been reached (this was before I even started posting this diary on WP) is related to the others, both persons with neurodiversity and those without. This diary really, without exaggeration, is intended by myself to be one of the ways that can help making the world (or at least parts of it) a place where neurodiversity, including but not limited to, autism and especially Asperger's, isn't perceived in a wrong stereotypical way.

For the purpose of aiming for the best effect possible, there is a lot of input of persons other than myself needed, too. Just like the input (taken from another thread :)) provided by the two users quoted in this post.



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24 Nov 2018, 11:58 am

Just a short follow-up post:
This thread still would be intended to be a learner's personal diary. But again :), that doesn't mean at all that feedback isn't possible. On the contrary. If there would be more feedback and input, then I could continue it in a better way even.

And if what I previously wrote was too verbose to some, I'd only say "fear not ;)". Recently, I have been doing some major Reducing Verbosity Without Removing Significant Information Practice. Yes, really.