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techstepgenr8tion
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14 Dec 2018, 8:05 am

I wondered for a while where that figure of speech came from (ie. House that Jack Built). I always think of 'Jack had a groove' or 'house music - it's a spiritual thing!', so I feel like I should be breaking out glowsticks rather than headbanging.


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naturalplastic
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14 Dec 2018, 9:03 am

Don't even know the guy.

Didn't know him when he was tame.

Maybe the wolfbane is in bloom!



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16 Dec 2018, 8:03 pm

Quote:
Jordan Peterson Becoming Feral...
Allow me to take a moment of schadenfreude.


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16 Dec 2018, 10:21 pm

RetroGamer87 wrote:
Quote:
Jordan Peterson Becoming Feral...
Allow me to take a moment of schadenfreude.


I think I may know where you are coming from, but in the words of Pauline Hanson: "Please explain..." noch einmal...:mrgreen:


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And one more thing,


"A stranger is a friend gang-stalker you haven't met yet." Humour is not meant to be taken seriously, yet many on the left pervert its intent.
Truth may be inconvenient but it is never politically incorrect...The Oracle of Truth has spoken...8)


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21 Dec 2018, 9:52 pm

Owen Benjamin and Vox Day vs Peterson and a few other things. 70 mins long, I suspect only techstep will have the stamina to watch it all. Skip to 47:03 for the main Peterson bit.


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That the Dog returns to his Vomit and the Sow returns to her Mire,
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And that after this is accomplished, and the brave new world begins
When all men are paid for existing and no man must pay for his sins,
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Pepe
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22 Dec 2018, 12:25 am

naturalplastic wrote:
Don't even know the guy.

Didn't know him when he was tame.

Maybe the wolfbane is in bloom!


I came across another recent video (his hair is grey) where he is even worse...

I think Peterson has adopted the: "Peter principle..."
Or in his case, the "Peterson principle..."
Looks like a new meme has been born... :mrgreen:

I think he is starting to over reach in areas in which he is not competent...
Fame going to his head...<shrug>


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Laughter is the best medicine. Age-appropriate behaviour is an arbitrary NT social construct.
Don't tell me white lies. Gaslight me at your peril. Don't give me your bad attitude. Hypnosis, psychosis. Tomarto, tomayto. "Go after people and not institutions; people hurt faster than institutions." I didn't say that. Honey badger.
If I'm so bad, pass me by. ;)


And one more thing,


"A stranger is a friend gang-stalker you haven't met yet." Humour is not meant to be taken seriously, yet many on the left pervert its intent.
Truth may be inconvenient but it is never politically incorrect...The Oracle of Truth has spoken...8)


THERE WILL BE NO COUP IN AMERIA!


techstepgenr8tion
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22 Dec 2018, 1:59 am

Mikah wrote:
Owen Benjamin and Vox Day vs Peterson and a few other things. 70 mins long, I suspect only techstep will have the stamina to watch it all. Skip to 47:03 for the main Peterson bit.

I tried, got to 65:30 before it seemed like the pattern was repeating itself. Took time-stamped notes but there wasn't even enough meat to criticize.

Guess I'd like to ask why you thought this was a good representation of whatever it is Vox thinks of Peterson. The only semi-useful thing I got is that Owen is a born-again Christian and takes things quite literally, I have to guess on some level Vox does because the whole thing gets cast as a Jewish conspiracy.

From some of the other Vox videos you PM'd I didn't expect to be smarter, I at least hoped I'd get some better sense of what main arguments Peterson makes that Vox has a problem with and the details on that but I didn't get any farther there either. It was like watching two Stephanie Millers criticize people they don't like.


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techstepgenr8tion
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22 Dec 2018, 2:02 am

I'd say I raise you Jordan Peterson and Jocko Willink but I get the impression that I'm probably just punishing shlaifu since he's the only one (that I know of) who watches these.


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22 Dec 2018, 6:06 am

techstepgenr8tion wrote:
Guess I'd like to ask why you thought this was a good representation of whatever it is Vox thinks of Peterson.

It was a friendly and relaxed chat that hit on a few Vox talking points re. Peterson. I thought some might enjoy it and it seemed relevant to the thread. His views can only really be known by reading the book he was plugging.

You know, I would love it if you could review Jordanetics for PPR, I suspect you are the most qualified here.


_________________
As it will be in the future, it was at the birth of Man -
There are only four things certain since Social Progress began: -
That the Dog returns to his Vomit and the Sow returns to her Mire,
And the burnt Fool’s bandaged finger goes wabbling back to the Fire;

And that after this is accomplished, and the brave new world begins
When all men are paid for existing and no man must pay for his sins,
As surely as Water will wet us, as surely as Fire will burn,
The Gods of the Copybook Headings with terror and slaughter return!


techstepgenr8tion
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22 Dec 2018, 10:32 am

Mikah wrote:
You know, I would love it if you could review Jordanetics for PPR, I suspect you are the most qualified here.

I'd have no reason to touch it or finance it because I have no reason to believe that it's going to anything deeper or in any way more direct to his core points than what I've seen in the videos you've been sending me.

What might be a more realistic request is that you watch (Youtube) Jordan Peterson's 2015 Maps of Meaning course (before anyone knew who he was) from start to finish and tell us on what details Vox got it right or got it wrong. If you haven't read Jordanetics yet you at least seem like you would enjoy reading it to compare against 2015 Maps of Meaning and it's a much more reasonable request than asking you to read Peterson cover to cover.


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22 Dec 2018, 11:23 am

techstepgenr8tion wrote:
What might be a more realistic request is that you watch (Youtube) Jordan Peterson's 2015 Maps of Meaning course


It's interesting you are keen to direct me to 2015 Maps of meaning. I'm currently slogging through the 1999 book version of maps of meaning (is there much difference between the lectures?) before I read Jordanetics. I may also skim 12 rules. Naturally I skipped ahead at first to see if JP did indeed write about dreams of cannibalising his hot cousin and grandma's pubic hair paintbrush.

They were standing upright, on their hind legs. They were thin, like greyhounds, and had pointed noses. They looked like creatures of ritual – like Anubis, from the Egyptian tombs. They were carrying plates in front of them, which contained pieces of seared meat. They wanted to trade the meat for the cans. I took a plate. In the center of it was a circular slab of flesh four inches in diameter and one inch thick, foully cooked, oily, with a marrow bone in the center of it. Where did it come from?
I had a terrible thought. I rushed downstairs to my cousin. The dogs had butchered her, and were offering the meat to the survivors of the disaster. I woke up with my heart pounding.


I dreamed I saw my maternal grandmother sitting by the bank of a swimming pool, that was also a river. In real life, she had been a victim of Alzheimer’s disease, and had regressed, before her death, to a semi-conscious state. In the dream, as well, she had lost her capacity for self-control. Her genital region was exposed, dimly; it had the appearance of a thick mat of hair. She was stroking herself, absent-mindedly. She walked over to me, with a handful of pubic hair, compacted into something resembling a large artist’s paint-brush. She pushed this at my face. I raised my arm, several times, to deflect her hand; finally, unwilling to hurt her, or interfere with her any farther, I let her have her way. She stroked my face with the brush, gently, and said, like a child, “isn’t is soft?” I looked at her ruined face and said, “yes, Grandma, it’s soft.”

Hm. I'm guessing that wasn't in the 2015 lecture series?

I will, for your sake, post a brief summary of Jordanetics when I finish. I would have thought, given your demeanor, that you would be more interested in the thoughts of critics.


_________________
As it will be in the future, it was at the birth of Man -
There are only four things certain since Social Progress began: -
That the Dog returns to his Vomit and the Sow returns to her Mire,
And the burnt Fool’s bandaged finger goes wabbling back to the Fire;

And that after this is accomplished, and the brave new world begins
When all men are paid for existing and no man must pay for his sins,
As surely as Water will wet us, as surely as Fire will burn,
The Gods of the Copybook Headings with terror and slaughter return!


techstepgenr8tion
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22 Dec 2018, 3:23 pm

Mikah wrote:
I will, for your sake, post a brief summary of Jordanetics when I finish. I would have thought, given your demeanor, that you would be more interested in the thoughts of critics.

I need to hear them actually make an a point that makes sense rather than these weird out-of-context surface blows. If that's all I get then I don't have reason to believe that they have anything.

That said I've heard Gabor Mate make some criticisms of Peterson, some of which I agree with. I've heard Iain McGilchrist criticize some of his ideas, most of his criticisms I agree with. I'd note that Jordan is also on good terms with Bret and Eric Weinstein as well as Jonathan Haidt and I know that at least Eric has had some disagreements with Jordan, Bret seems to see a lot in what Jordan is saying but would suggest that he wasn't articulating it that well in the beginning. Sam Harris largely thinks well of him albeit he disagrees on some aspects and also worries about the slavishness of some of Peterson's fan base.

None of the above would ever suggest that he's a hack, a fraud, or a charlatan and the few who have had that question put to them flatly said that such a claim is ridiculous.

So Vox is off in his own left-field territory, somewhere in the vicinity of TJ Kirk (Amazing Atheist) in calling him a huxter, a fraud, or at least someone that they intellectually despise (and who knows - you might like TJ Kirk's 'Chaos - An Antidote to Meaning').

The point being - I have a host of good reasons to believe that Vox is off the deep end with this, and I wouldn't be the least bit surprised to hear him say 'Bret and Eric Weinstein, Jonathan Haidt, Sam Harris - Jews!! !', he already pulled that in the interview with Benjamin Owen about Peterson's friend and sponsor up in Canada. He might be able to design a video game, make some dance music, or write war books but aside from that he's striking me increasingly as a self-absorbed putz with some kind of ax to grind that he wraps in far-right Christian conspiracy theories.

Until I actually see evidence that he has something useful or intelligent to add to the conversation I don't think I'll bother.


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22 Dec 2018, 6:51 pm

techstepgenr8tion wrote:
I need to hear them actually make an a point that makes sense rather than these weird out-of-context surface blows. If that's all I get then I don't have reason to believe that they have anything.

That said I've heard Gabor Mate make some criticisms of Peterson, some of which I agree with. I've heard Iain McGilchrist criticize some of his ideas, most of his criticisms I agree with. I'd note that Jordan is also on good terms with Bret and Eric Weinstein as well as Jonathan Haidt and I know that at least Eric has had some disagreements with Jordan, Bret seems to see a lot in what Jordan is saying but would suggest that he wasn't articulating it that well in the beginning. Sam Harris largely thinks well of him albeit he disagrees on some aspects and also worries about the slavishness of some of Peterson's fan base.

None of the above would ever suggest that he's a hack, a fraud, or a charlatan and the few who have had that question put to them flatly said that such a claim is ridiculous.

So Vox is off in his own left-field territory, somewhere in the vicinity of TJ Kirk (Amazing Atheist) in calling him a huxter, a fraud, or at least someone that they intellectually despise (and who knows - you might like TJ Kirk's 'Chaos - An Antidote to Meaning').

The point being - I have a host of good reasons to believe that Vox is off the deep end with this, and I wouldn't be the least bit surprised to hear him say 'Bret and Eric Weinstein, Jonathan Haidt, Sam Harris - Jews!! !', he already pulled that in the interview with Benjamin Owen about Peterson's friend and sponsor up in Canada. He might be able to design a video game, make some dance music, or write war books but aside from that he's striking me increasingly as a self-absorbed putz with some kind of ax to grind that he wraps in far-right Christian conspiracy theories.

Until I actually see evidence that he has something useful or intelligent to add to the conversation I don't think I'll bother.


I'll dig into the books and produce a summary.

For those wondering, this is the video I linked to techstep some months ago. Intentionally heavy on the rhetoric and viral production values, so no complaining that it's not a dissertation. That's what the book is for.


_________________
As it will be in the future, it was at the birth of Man -
There are only four things certain since Social Progress began: -
That the Dog returns to his Vomit and the Sow returns to her Mire,
And the burnt Fool’s bandaged finger goes wabbling back to the Fire;

And that after this is accomplished, and the brave new world begins
When all men are paid for existing and no man must pay for his sins,
As surely as Water will wet us, as surely as Fire will burn,
The Gods of the Copybook Headings with terror and slaughter return!


techstepgenr8tion
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23 Dec 2018, 1:44 am

One of the bigger digs people take with him and his usual explanation, relatively covered in the first five minutes.

Also I REALLY love Owen Benjamin's comment in the thread, it's quite candid and revealing:

Quote:
Because even in two hours he can’t articulate the fact that he’s a satanist. “I believe in God” is not a sound bite.

Wonder if I should tell him he's a Zionist shill and any denial of that is proof. :roll:


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23 Dec 2018, 7:37 am

techstepgenr8tion wrote:
Also I REALLY love Owen Benjamin's comment in the thread, it's quite candid and revealing:


You can thank Vox for that. He's pieced together how JP understands the world in Jordanetics from his own words and while Peterson never says "Hail Satan" or anything like that, Vox notes parallels with the writings of Aleister Crowley and that scene. In the mind of dear sweet Owen that becomes "JP is a closet Satanist".

I've only just recently been introduced to Owen. He's quite a character isn't he?


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As it will be in the future, it was at the birth of Man -
There are only four things certain since Social Progress began: -
That the Dog returns to his Vomit and the Sow returns to her Mire,
And the burnt Fool’s bandaged finger goes wabbling back to the Fire;

And that after this is accomplished, and the brave new world begins
When all men are paid for existing and no man must pay for his sins,
As surely as Water will wet us, as surely as Fire will burn,
The Gods of the Copybook Headings with terror and slaughter return!


techstepgenr8tion
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23 Dec 2018, 12:02 pm

Mikah wrote:
You can thank Vox for that. He's pieced together how JP understands the world in Jordanetics from his own words and while Peterson never says "Hail Satan" or anything like that, Vox notes parallels with the writings of Aleister Crowley and that scene. In the mind of dear sweet Owen that becomes "JP is a closet Satanist".

I've only just recently been introduced to Owen. He's quite a character isn't he?

What you just said above is a lacuna.

Crowley was Andy Kaufman half a century before Andy Kaufman. He took the Golden Dawn's initiatory system, something that was a mix of Judao-Christian mysteries and Egyptian, and essentially put punk/emo patches on it and dressed it in wolves clothing because he'd been bible-beaten to the extreme as a kid and was trying to make a spiritual system that people could use who'd been through that rather than going buck-wild on atheist materialism. A lot of people joke perhaps that the Whore of Babylon (Babalon in his sytem) was wank material when he was a teen - maybe. His system is indeed juicy in the exotic and edgy direction but - that's what worked for him and I personally know a lot of people who are in OTO, I spent a while there and got my Minerval with them. It's calmed down a lot since the 60's, it had to, but essentially it's the really geeky kids you went to high school with who had punk and industrial patches on their backpacks doing ECG Gnostic mass regularly, having workshops on things like tarot as it relates to the Kabbalistic/Qabalistic Tree of Life, sometimes doing evocation if someone wants to do that, and at other times they're doing charitable work in the community in the same sort of ways that the Masons like to do. Other than that, just like I'd say with AMORC Rosicrucians or other mystics, you'd hardly know that you aren't hanging out with Unitarians.

To put Crowley in perspective, considering my stretch of time as a canonical modern Christian and my understanding of the way the charge of 'satanism' work there are two kinds.

The fist type, 1), is a person actually and literally worships satan, whether they believe that just to be a symbol (Anton Lavey), whether they're really coming at it from the Promethian pespective of seeking individual freedom and growth through experience (ie. Gnostic Luciferian), or whatever else - they're wringing out what they think is missing from strictly white-light religion and trying to mine the best aspects of what's considered 'the adversary' in most religious systems. You do also have groups who try to push the envelope in the theistic satanism direction, like Order of Nine Angles, and they also - running up against the law - can't do much of anything aside from promise a lot and then have to make an excuse for why they have to use representations (for example they're supposed to sacrifice someone yearly or something like that? I really doubt it happns).

The second format of the charge of satanism is, 2), anyone who believes and purveys something other than 'Jesus died on the cross for your sins'. In this sense any Buddhist, Hindu, Islamic, or any other type of spiritual leader in the world would technically qualify as a satanist as well as anyone whose teaching a variant of Christianity that's not canonical.

Crowley, mostly falls into category 2), ie. not canonical Christianity, his system - really being a hijack and slight refitting of the Golden Dawn system, is heretical and synchretic in the old Greek and Roman sense, hence bad because he's dealing with other deities. Also yes, to some extent he's working with the sorts of radical self-exploration forces that one might get with Luciferianism to some degree in that he was as prone to explore both the light and the dark, test himself with the dark, and one of the things he said in his writings was a prayer, something along the lines of 'save me from both good and from evil'. In the Kabbalistic/Qabalistic sense, unlike modern Christianity, the Tree of Life doesn't consider the universe a holy war of good against evil. The tree has a right pillar (mercy) and a left pillar (severity), and most of the destructive or deemed satanic aspects like destruction, aggression, lust, sexuality in its more ambitious senses, would fall in Geburah on the left side of the tree, otherwise possibly the Qliphoth (shells) or dark side of Venus for the sexuality and the Qliphoth then gets taken as the inverse tree. The goal of a Kabbalist/Qabalist is to walk 'the middle path' which means not to be a pushover (ie. going so far to the right as to be brittle) and not becoming a violent putz (going to the opposite extreme on the left) but to walk the middle path - the path of mildness, which to them and many Christian mystics is the path which leads back up to the godhead.

I get that people who need to believe that there is a hidden army of satanists getting the world primed for the Tribulation or the Strong Delusion of 2 Thessalonians they have to believe that Freemasons, Rosicrucians, Martinists, OTO, Golden Dawn, and anyone else whose doing something both deep and different from they are (and in some cases not averse to symbols like Baphomet) are that hidden army or are a piece of it. If they really want to grasp at straws they'll see that enemy in anyone whose not a strict 20th century style 'Jesus died on the cross for my sins' Christian. They believe the tribulation is nigh and they believe that it's satans powers bringing it about.

If they actually did a digging into the history of the bible, *if they actually read the bible cover to cover and didn't have someone else constantly telling them how to interpret it*, they'd see the conceptual evolution of Ha Satan from simply being anything that was unhelpful to Yahweh or the Elohim's plan to then being the celestial curmudgeon and quality inspector (Job and other places) to then somehow getting thrown into Revelation as related to the characters in the vision.


What all of that means - Jordan Peterson is talking about the evolution of ideas across various cultures and what he, Jung, Mercia Iliade, etc. interpret them to mean. Unfortunately for 20th century style Christians - the bible is a braided knot of various kinds of pagan philosophy. Jordan's just addressing it for what it is and if he's talking about the virtues of Marduk and the confessions of Babylonian kings as to whether they were good Marduk's that year, or the virtues of the story of Isis, Osiris, and Horus, he's tracking these things - and Christianity - as the history of human moral development all the while, in my best estimation, being something like a pantheist/panentheist mystic himself. To me that's not a problem at all - it's a good thing because it shows he 'gets it', that he understands what these things are and, like anyone whose done their homework, he has no impression that the bible dropped from the sky like the monolith in 2001 Space Odyssey as the 'right' version of history that every account of the contrary is the devil/satan making false facts to the contrary.


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Last edited by techstepgenr8tion on 23 Dec 2018, 12:11 pm, edited 2 times in total.