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RushKing
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17 Nov 2018, 12:40 pm

magz wrote:
The Free Territory lasted 3 years. I know, it was conquered, but my point is, it's too little time to prove sustainability.
The other examples also haven't lived long enough to prove internal stability.
For this I would require over 40 years, the examples above are not near.

This is goal post shifting.

sly279 claimed that communism eventually requires state control over the economy. He has not demonstrated this.

Sly can't objectively prove his case. But what he could do is point out economic contradictions the former examples have, that could eventually require state control to solve. This is all I ask from people.

What are the contradictions?



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17 Nov 2018, 3:01 pm

Well me and my boyfriend sure didn't 'choose' to be poor...guess we could be 'poorer' at least we have a roof over our heads and can afford internet and food. But you'd think a couple our age, could afford more than a 1 bedroom apartment. We are poor enough my boyfriend still has a tape window on his car from when some as*hole smashed it months ago...rather than having been able to afford to just replace it.

I can't really complain too much though, its not a bad apartment its a gigantic improvement from the last apartment and we're getting by alright for now. But it certainly always feels like we're on an edge and it wouldn't take much to fall over that edge and lose everything and end up on the streets. He's been there before and its certainly not what he wants for us.


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17 Nov 2018, 6:26 pm

In every job seminar I've had, its been emphasized that "networking" is the most important thing to finding a job.

Those of us without networking skills are hopelessly out-matched by those who posses them. Don't give me crap about how it's all about hard work and merit.


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CockneyRebel
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17 Nov 2018, 11:32 pm

Nobody chooses to live in poverty. Some people find themselves in that unfortunate position. Someone who's been working at a very good job for 25 years could get laid off and find them self living in poverty within 1 or 2 years.


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LoveNotHate
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17 Nov 2018, 11:42 pm

Some people do choose to be "in poverty" because it can have financial advantages.

1. For example, you might qualify for financial aid if you quit your job, and move to a poorer parent's home. I did this.

2. Millionaires may decide to be "in poverty" to qualify for welfare programs.

How Millionaires Collect Food Stamps
https://www.wsj.com/articles/how-millio ... 1516044026

3. There are many income-based government programs that you can benefit from if you can make yourself "in poverty" on paper.

I plan to strategically take advantage of "poverty" programs when I retire.

4. When I was unemployed, I decided to stay unemployed (in poverty) to get the full benefits.


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18 Nov 2018, 1:30 am

LoveNotHate wrote:
Some people do choose to be "in poverty" because it can have financial advantages.

1. For example, you might qualify for financial aid if you quit your job, and move to a poorer parent's home. I did this.

2. Millionaires may decide to be "in poverty" to qualify for welfare programs.

How Millionaires Collect Food Stamps
https://www.wsj.com/articles/how-millio ... 1516044026

3. There are many income-based government programs that you can benefit from if you can make yourself "in poverty" on paper.

I plan to strategically take advantage of "poverty" programs when I retire.

4. When I was unemployed, I decided to stay unemployed (in poverty) to get the full benefits.


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sly279
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18 Nov 2018, 2:05 am

RushKing wrote:
sly279 wrote:
RushKing wrote:
sly279 wrote:
Communism isn’t government less as it needs a government to control all the resources

Except all the times it didn't.

So never. Communists must has only existed since 1900s


The Free Territory (7 million people)

Communes spread across Rojava

Zone to Defend, another present day example


Non of those are existing communist nations
They anarchies. Communism requires a government to force everyone to share their money and resources as people won’t do so naturally. It doesn’t work.



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18 Nov 2018, 2:06 am

People who say poverty is a choice are also pretty much the same who say it's due to some moral fault. They put the blame entirely on the poor in order to justify not rendering help by claiming the poor need to adjust their morality. This indefensible idea is an outgrowth of modern day prosperity gospel, which is no gospel at all, and hearkens back to a purposeful misinterpretation of Calvinism.


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RushKing
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18 Nov 2018, 8:51 am

sly279 wrote:
RushKing wrote:

The Free Territory (7 million people)

Communes spread across Rojava

Zone to Defend, another present day example


Non of those are existing communist nations
They anarchies.

This is a no true scotsman fallacy. Marxism-leninism isn't the only form of communism that exists.
sly279 wrote:
Communism requires a government to force everyone to share their money and resources as people won’t do so naturally. It doesn’t work.

You haven't demonstrated this.



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18 Nov 2018, 12:18 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
People who say poverty is a choice are also pretty much the same who say it's due to some moral fault. They put the blame entirely on the poor in order to justify not rendering help by claiming the poor need to adjust their morality. This indefensible idea is an outgrowth of modern day prosperity gospel, which is no gospel at all, and hearkens back to a purposeful misinterpretation of Calvinism.
Wealth is a choice, while poverty is the default state.

I know, I keep posting this, but it is a significant idea. In order for most people to become wealthy (not including inheritance or lottery), it takes a series of well thought-out choices and effective follow-through. While this is no guarantee of success, doing nothing is almost certain to guarantee an impoverished life (again, not including inheritance or lottery).

Some people work themselves to death and never achieve success. Choosing to drop out of school is one reason, as it leaves only the most menial of unskilled jobs for employment. Choosing to engage in criminal activity will also stifle a person’s earning capability (maybe not right away, but the prisons are full of people who thought that they could profit from crime). Choosing to use drugs or alcohol, or even choosing to become a parent before being able to even support one’s self are ways of “asking for” a lifetime of poverty.

But some people who are fully capable -- physically, mentally, and emotionally -- actually do choose to drop out of society after they have shown potential for greatness. They chose to give up and walk away from a meaningful and productive future.

HOWEVER, if a person is physically, emotionally, or mentally incapable of leaving their home (or even their bed), then he or she doesn’t have any options to choose from. For them, choice is not an issue -- survival is.

(Did everybody see that? I even put it in bold characters so that it would not be missed.)

So while I am not saying that poverty is always a choice, NOT choosing to be successful is almost certain to lead to poverty.



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18 Nov 2018, 1:06 pm

Fnord wrote:
NOT choosing to be successful is almost certain to lead to poverty.

Shame is suppose to motivate people to choose to be successful.

Shaming words:
MOOCH
MOOCHER
PARASITE
FREE LOADER
USELESS EATER
LEECH
WELFARE QUEEN

Image


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18 Nov 2018, 2:05 pm

LoveNotHate wrote:
Fnord wrote:
NOT choosing to be successful is almost certain to lead to poverty.

Shame is suppose to motivate people to choose to be successful.

Shaming words:
MOOCH
MOOCHER
PARASITE
FREE LOADER
USELESS EATER
LEECH
WELFARE QUEEN

Image


No, continuously shaming someone is only likely to reinforce a sense of worthlessness and failure, causing one to remain paralyzed in poverty.


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18 Nov 2018, 4:04 pm

:cry:

Fnord wrote:
I know, I keep posting this, but it is a significant idea. In order for most people to become wealthy (not including inheritance or lottery), it takes a series of well thought-out choices and effective follow-through. While this is no guarantee of success, doing nothing is almost certain to guarantee an impoverished life (again, not including inheritance or lottery).


You are overlooking the overwhelming factors of luck in terms of time, place and conditions in which one is born, and the willingness (of some) to achieve by exploiting others or resources. This is a hidden but significant factor in a person's rise to fame and/or real wealth.

Fnord wrote:
Some people work themselves to death and never achieve success. Choosing to drop out of school is one reason, as it leaves only the most menial of unskilled jobs for employment. Choosing to engage in criminal activity will also stifle a person’s earning capability (maybe not right away, but the prisons are full of people who thought that they could profit from crime). Choosing to use drugs or alcohol, or even choosing to become a parent before being able to even support one’s self are ways of “asking for” a lifetime of poverty.


The factors you list above as "choices" frequently are not choices at all. Some are forced out of school in order to support their families. Some criminals do have a respectful and wealthy life: look at all the drug money in Miami. For many communities drug use is so prevalent "choosing" not to use is near impossible. Remember, these "choices" are made when people are adolescents, whose brains are not fully developed, and who have raging hormones that those of us at the other end of the life span can hardly remember. If you are not born into a wealthy country, in a middle class family, in a relatively safe neighborhood, these things are not choices.

Fnord wrote:
But some people who are fully capable -- physically, mentally, and emotionally -- actually do choose to drop out of society after they have shown potential for greatness. They chose to give up and walk away from a meaningful and productive future.


How do you know that? From the outside, how can you tell if someone has a disability, mental illness, trauma or other factor? How do you know that some economic, political or other shift in the larger community has caused their "failure."

I understand your point that some people, with a lot of hard work, determination and luck can work their way up the class ladder. And that effort should be recognized and commended. But we cannot condemn so many others who are not able to do this.

Poverty is a choice only for those who for religious, moral or political reasons choose to limit their access to wealth and resources.


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22 Nov 2018, 8:39 pm

What, another question regarding employment by Foss?
Quite simply, 'Poverty', is everywhere.
There are currently many problems regarding social housings, Universal credit(where 6 previous benefits have now merged into one making tenants and people on middle or lower wage incomes poorer), there is social poverty which is distinguishable by a class system and there is genuine fear, of being impoverished by the time older people retire in case, their private pension assets freeze by a new recession within our economy that may deepen after Brexit.
Just remember Foss, the Swiss own their own currency whereas our wages have been trodden on and taxed by greedy foreign investors looking to increase migrant labour by 2020.
We are stamping out Brussels once and for all, before the Bourgeoisie hit back on their own employers.
I speak only from a general family perspective where sometimes, you need to get personal in order to stand up and be counted for.
People like the Mccanns, have professionally exploited the public purse strings as they choose to punish citizens because their daughter has been missing for eleven years. The ensuing cost won't bring her back and it's breaking the bank trying. Maybe if they checked on her when they left her alone she might be alive now.
A few more promising leads is just going to go nowhere and I feel sorry for those who won't get their money back. That includes Osborne's Grand, (stupid) idea of investing in business first class travel to suit his and other rich capitalists on their model commutes, when what every traveller wants, is cheaper travel not the starlight bloody express. Maybe he should grant lighter bails to tax evaders too, his brother needs it with the help there is out there. The Autumn budget sounded like an express train filling in all the stops but, actually going nowhere.
Anyway, enough of my public brawl and think about lifting your own community spirit. Christ if your family is rich what are you moaning about? I had the same trash about getting a well paid decent job when I was young, well, its nothing now in a system of continual failure to match supply with demand.
People have grown sick of the lies when what they want is a Xmas bonus and a big thank you for keeping the public purse open. Maybe you should get a job as a reporter, you'd do well with speaking out for the social and lower classes. We need young blood to tackle a tricky in house communion, in inhospitable and half crazed Europe. Bring back the British expats and lose all the cheap waste of space politicians are creating and harping on about.
Put in some hostels and keep the cities safe.