More Thought on Incels.

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cyberdad
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19 Jul 2021, 8:14 pm

ezbzbfcg2 wrote:

And this isn't about incels or people perceived to be incels. For me, it's about group dynamics and prejudice and assumption about said group, which we're taught ideally to strive to be above.

But then, it all goes out the window because "society says differently." That's the whole point. The same people who speak out against prejudice experienced by one group turn around and wholeheartedly embrace it with another group, because "that's just the way it is."

Social programming includes set dogma about people in society who pose a risk. Incels have gained a reputation for violence and (unfortunately) the 20 something male living in his mother's basement who posts misogynistic comments on social media is deemed a danger to women in the same way males who are addicted to child porn pose a risk to children.

There is nuance here in that the average NT doesn't have this perception about young autistic men. One of the most popular TV shows on Australian television is a reality program called "Love on the spectrum". Young autistic men on the program have actually become minor celebrities with guest appearances on day-time talk shows.

Its important to give NTs some credit (at least a little) to be able to distinguish a male on the spectrum from a full blown incel.

Hollywood_Guy
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20 Jul 2021, 4:43 pm

I think social media is the cause or major contributor right now to the relative "Incel" problem.

Fnord
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20 Jul 2021, 4:47 pm

Hollywood_Guy wrote:

I think social media is the cause or major contributor right now to the relative "Incel" problem.

I think obesity, unemployment, and lack of access to soap may also be major factors.

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auntblabby
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20 Jul 2021, 5:16 pm

there are many incels who are fit, slender, hygienic, and even with paying jobs!

ezbzbfcg2
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20 Jul 2021, 11:56 pm

auntblabby wrote:

there are many incels who are fit, slender, hygienic, and even with paying jobs!

That's kind of what I was getting at. At the end of the day, it means involuntary celibate.

Also, not all unemployed losers living in mama's basement are automatically violent, or misogynist, (or even virgins sometimes).

I see a disturbing overlap that people here aren't picking up on. Misconstruing those with Asperger's/Autism as inherently maladjusted and evil is very real. There are threads on here to this day addressing these things. Labeling every violent young man an "incel" not only obfuscates the correct meaning of the term, but negatively profiles various people who have no ill intention. (Might as well say everyone with Autism is crazy and deranged). You're participating in the same behavior by joing in on redefining what being involuntarily celibate means.

And yet, people just go along with it because of "society," or "that's what the word means now,"

It still means involuntarily celibate. Sad that few see the parallels.

cyberdad
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21 Jul 2021, 12:02 am

Whether we like it or not, incels are a permanent subculture that exist in our society.

The subculture attracts (these are not my words) primarily "straight, white dudes who claim to be plotting violent revolution because women won't have sex with them."
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-04-27/ ... ld/9700932

Fnord
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21 Jul 2021, 8:15 am

auntblabby wrote:

there are many incels who are fit, slender, hygienic, and even with paying jobs!

While they may be incels, they may not be incels for very long -- even with Trump's personality.

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Nades
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21 Jul 2021, 8:21 am

Fnord wrote:

auntblabby wrote:

there are many incels who are fit, slender, hygienic, and even with paying jobs!

While they may be incels, they may not be incels for very long -- even with Trump's personality.

Out of interest, is there a very rough benchmark for how infrequent sex needs to be before one is considered incel?

Fnord
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21 Jul 2021, 8:24 am

Nades wrote:

Fnord wrote:

auntblabby wrote:

there are many incels who are fit, slender, hygienic, and even with paying jobs!

While they may be incels, they may not be incels for very long -- even with Trump's personality.

Out of interest, is there a very rough benchmark for how infrequent sex needs to be before one is considered incel?

The benchmark is zero -- claiming celibacy implies that the person is currently having no sex at all.

Whether or not an incel is also a virgin is a mere detail.

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Nades
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21 Jul 2021, 8:42 am

Fnord wrote:

Nades wrote:

Fnord wrote:

auntblabby wrote:

there are many incels who are fit, slender, hygienic, and even with paying jobs!

While they may be incels, they may not be incels for very long -- even with Trump's personality.

Out of interest, is there a very rough benchmark for how infrequent sex needs to be before one is considered incel?

The benchmark is zero -- claiming celibacy implies that the person is currently having no sex at all.

Whether or not an incel is also a virgin is a mere detail.

I've seen threads on incel websites where they often call non virgins "fakecels" as apparently if they managed to have sex once then a female has "validated" them and they can do it again.

It's hard for even them to come up with something concrete.

Fnord
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21 Jul 2021, 8:45 am

Nades wrote:

Fnord wrote:

Nades wrote:

Fnord wrote:

auntblabby wrote:

there are many incels who are fit, slender, hygienic, and even with paying jobs!

While they may be incels, they may not be incels for very long -- even with Trump's personality.

Out of interest, is there a very rough benchmark for how infrequent sex needs to be before one is considered incel?

The benchmark is zero -- claiming celibacy implies that the person is currently having no sex at all. Whether or not an incel is also a virgin is a mere detail.

I've seen threads on incel websites where they often call non virgins "fakecels" as apparently if they managed to have sex once then a female has "validated" them and they can do it again. It's hard for even them to come up with something concrete.

It is all part of their "More Miserable Than Thou" culture, in which they compete to see who has been denied sex the longest. Even "getting to first base" is seen by some as disqualifying for anyone to claim Incel status.

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Nades
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21 Jul 2021, 9:37 am

Fnord wrote:

Nades wrote:

Fnord wrote:

Nades wrote:

Fnord wrote:

auntblabby wrote:

there are many incels who are fit, slender, hygienic, and even with paying jobs!

While they may be incels, they may not be incels for very long -- even with Trump's personality.

Out of interest, is there a very rough benchmark for how infrequent sex needs to be before one is considered incel?

The benchmark is zero -- claiming celibacy implies that the person is currently having no sex at all. Whether or not an incel is also a virgin is a mere detail.

I've seen threads on incel websites where they often call non virgins "fakecels" as apparently if they managed to have sex once then a female has "validated" them and they can do it again. It's hard for even them to come up with something concrete.

It is all part of their "More Miserable Than Thou" culture, in which they see who has been denied sex the longest.

There are incels who have probably had sex hours ago who currently consider themselves an incel this exact moment.

I think there are two types of incels. Ones that Live and breathe the toxic "women are responsible for all my problems" mentality that the incel community has been tagged with and ones that know the problems they have are their own issue and attempt to work on them. I imagine the vast majority fall into the latter....possibly even me. Months go at a time between getting lucky for me.

Ironically after that terrible date I had a few weeks ago I met another woman who seems to actually like me for who I am and has her own "stuff" and home. It'll be interesting to see where it goes.

funeralxempire
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21 Jul 2021, 11:54 am

Fnord wrote:

Hollywood_Guy wrote:

I think social media is the cause or major contributor right now to the relative "Incel" problem.

I think obesity, unemployment, and lack of access to soap may also be major factors.

I'm willing to bet the crab bucket they choose to occupy is a substantial factor. Toxic communities tend to encourage their participants to only ever get worse.

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Fnord
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21 Jul 2021, 1:52 pm

auntblabby wrote:

There are many incels who are fit, slender, hygienic, and even with paying jobs!

While these features may get a man noticed, not having them is not always a deal-breaker (except maybe B.O.) as far as most women seem to be concerned. Confidence, masculine energy, good social skills, and an interesting lifestyle may outweigh everything else. What most women seem to want in a man are these 4 traits.

1. Confidence: This is, by far, one of the most attractive traits a man can have. Confident men are comfortable in their own skin and like themselves, just as they are. Consequently, they are more sociable, more genuine, and they don’t take crap from anybody. Women quickly pick up on this and it involuntarily generates attraction.

2. Masculine Energy: There is a wide range of characteristics that are generally masculine: decisiveness, dominance (not the same as aggressiveness), firm voice tone, strong eye contact, seeking challenge, having clear goals and ambitions in life, perseverance, practical thinking, being protective, achieving status, and so on. Masculine energy is what a man conveys when he manifests such traits.

3. Good Social Skills: Guys women react very well to will flirt, seek their attention, and even "undress" women with their eyes. They may be funny or they may be verbally fluent. They may be charismatic or they may know how to make a girl feel special. They may be good listeners or mesmerizing story tellers. Or they may they have a mix of these qualities. Any way you cut it, they have a broad range of good social skills.

4. An Interesting Lifestyle: The key is to not be just another guy who goes to a boring 9 to 5 job, then watches TV and plays computer games all day long. Instead, it is tremendously helpful if there are just a few elements in a man's life that make it unordinary, above average, and exciting -- interesting hobbies, an adventuresome spirit, risk-taking, and a passion for active pastimes.

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Fnord
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21 Jul 2021, 2:01 pm

funeralxempire wrote:

Fnord wrote:

Hollywood_Guy wrote:

I think social media is the cause or major contributor right now to the relative "Incel" problem.

I think obesity, unemployment, and lack of access to soap may also be major factors.

I'm willing to bet the crab bucket they choose to occupy is a substantial factor. Toxic communities tend to encourage their participants to only ever get worse.

You have described every 'support' group in which I ever became involved.

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PhosphorusDecree
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21 Jul 2021, 4:30 pm

funeralxempire wrote:

Fnord wrote:

Hollywood_Guy wrote:

I think social media is the cause or major contributor right now to the relative "Incel" problem.

I think obesity, unemployment, and lack of access to soap may also be major factors.

I'm willing to bet the crab bucket they choose to occupy is a substantial factor. Toxic communities tend to encourage their participants to only ever get worse.

And when you live in a crab bucket, it is hard to imagine the rest of the world being anything other than a crab bucket. It certainly came as a shock to me when I left secondary school and started living among people who weren't constantly trying to pull each other down. Any signals from outside the crab bucket are percieved as lies and hypocracy.*

I think my interests growing up also helped divert me away from the toxic self-pity trap. The various Dead White European Males I admired did not all have sucessful love lives. Take classical composers. There's Liszt, who went around knocking up princesses and sweeping ladies' underwear off the stage with a broom after his gigs. Then there's Beethoven. Never married, but not for want of trying: multiple young ladies ran away screaming when Beethoven proposed to them, one of whom later described him as "ugly and half-crazed." Beethoven is generally agreed to be greater than Liszt- one of the three greatest composers of all time, in fact. So I grew up with an example of a romantically unsuccessful man who, far from being a despised "loser", was the best in the world at what he did. There is more to life.

*ed. accidental neologism...

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