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Arganger
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26 Nov 2018, 10:50 am

ODD;
Oppositional defiant disorder

Most autistic people, let alone NT people, severely misunderstand and misrepresent (Somewhat understandably) this condition as just being a brat, however this isn't the case. First let me define it and then I will explain it.

The Mayo Clinic defines it this way,
"A disorder in a child marked by defiant and disobedient behavior to authority figures."

However that only shows it from the outside, here is how I would define it,
"A compulsive distrust and dislike of authority"

It develops in my experience from some degree of trauma relating to authority not knowing what is best for you, but thinking they do. It has genetic factors as well, so both not everyone will develop it and it will take less for some to develop it than for others.

Similarly to PTSD, it has a use. It existed to keep people with it safe, but once it is no longer necessary it becomes a nuance.

Most people with ODD do not want to misbehave, and feel remorse afterwords. However it is extremly hard not to when you don't feel safe.

Rather than simple misbehavior ODD can be a lot stronger, some examples from my own childhood;
Not talking to my preschool teachers for literal months
Refusing to read because the books were stupid (I started out on high level books on my own)
Refusing to participate in classes
Telling adults exactly how I was planning on killing them, in detail
Something like a timeout could turn into an all night fight
Only giving out affection during a high fever
Never taking an adults word for it, making them prove everything
If I couldn't see a reason for a rule I wouldn't bother with it
Holding the opposite opinion to people in authority

Normal parenting simply doesn't work, it spirals into a train wreaks worth of anger and frustration. What does tend to work is to stop trying to be "The boss", as that is what is causing the kid to feel unsafe, and instead talking it over with them, give them time to blow off steam, make solutions with them, never talk down to them and be willing to meet them in the middle.

While ODD, as a diagnoses, automatically drops after age 18, it doesn't stop. Either like me, you learn to better control it, or it goes like this;

ODD may become more severe, especially without proper treatment and turn into CD, or conduct disorder. It is rather than a need not to be controlled, a need to be in control of others as well. People with CD tend to compulsively break the law. CD can be very hard to treat.

CD, if it doesn't improve, can then be replaced with a personality disorder diagnosis or sometimes something like Bipolar disorder. Most commonly ASPD, antisocial personality disorder. (Though knowing how widely personality disorders are stigmatized this may not help my case.)

Through therapy and my mother learning how to better manage me my environment became safer, allowing me to slowly shave off some of my compulsions.
When I do have them, as I still do have some big ODD triggers still standing;
First I recognize that the compulsion isn't necessarily reasonable.
I will try to explain to others what is going on, though thanks to lack of understanding it does backfire often
I then will try to go of on my own and blow off some steam until I can look at the situation more reasonably
I will then put together my thoughts and try to reattempt the situation more calmly.
The reaction of the other person can sometimes either re ignite the ODD, or the situation can be resolved.

How that affects online is sometimes I will be in a conversation and feel it starting to come up and take a break, I guess that may make it look like my own replies start of sounding angry, and then suddenly become reasonable, or go in loops. Sometimes If I know I won't be able to retain my composure I will drop a conversation all together.


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Fnord
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26 Nov 2018, 10:53 am

So ... are you trying to use a medical diagnosis as an excuse to behave defiantly toward authority figures?



Arganger
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26 Nov 2018, 10:55 am

Fnord wrote:
So ... are you trying to use a medical diagnosis as an excuse to behave defiantly toward authority figures?


I have worked for years to lesson it, so I'm not trying to excuse it but explain it.
As mental illnesses I have dealt with go, this has been a very hard one on me and those around me.


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Suspected; PTSD (Treated, as my counselor did notice), possible PCOS, PMDD, Learning disabilities (Sure of it, unknown what they are), possibly something wrong with immune system (Sick about as much as I'm not) Possible EDS- hyper mobility type (Will be getting tested, suggested by doctor) dysautonomia


BTDT
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26 Nov 2018, 11:00 am

Our employee's manual covers such people. We don't have to assist abusive customers.



Arganger
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26 Nov 2018, 11:08 am

BTDT wrote:
Our employee's manual covers such people. We don't have to assist abusive customers.


I hope you don't mean just someone diagnosed with ODD,
Often it is directed against certain types of people, like teachers, your own parents, politicians, officers ect, but at least with me I don't think I can remember a time my ODD has been against someone like a grocery clerk or a server, at least not since I was really little (Like 5) and only then because it would be because of being an adult. ODD doesn't inherently make someone abusive.


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Suspected; PTSD (Treated, as my counselor did notice), possible PCOS, PMDD, Learning disabilities (Sure of it, unknown what they are), possibly something wrong with immune system (Sick about as much as I'm not) Possible EDS- hyper mobility type (Will be getting tested, suggested by doctor) dysautonomia


jimmy m
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26 Nov 2018, 11:22 am

I hadn't come across the term ODD before, so thank you for explaining it.


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Fnord
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26 Nov 2018, 11:49 am

Arganger wrote:
Fnord wrote:
So ... are you trying to use a medical diagnosis as an excuse to behave defiantly toward authority figures?
... I'm not trying to excuse it but explain it...
Ah. Thank you.



starcats
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26 Nov 2018, 7:13 pm

Thanks for this post. I teach high school and while all teenagers defy authority a little bit, there are always one or two that take this to an extreme. I don't think I've ever had one with an actual ODD diagnosis, but it's what I attribute to their behavior, inside my own head, not publicly.

I have noticed these students are triggered when a teacher calls them out in front of others and are unreachable when they have an audience and find a way to make a teacher look bad. They are just fine one on one when it is with a tone of support and understanding, but will shut out one on one attention if there was any previous authoritative interaction. Do you have any suggestions for how to repair a relationship once a person with ODD sees the other negatively? I try to always be in the moment with what each person needs, but there are occasions that I just have to tell people what to do for physical safety of others or to keep class on track.

I was also wondering if you think there is any correlation between ODD and being rigidly rule-bound. I know it's more of an autistically associated trait, but I find that the people I see as having ODD need others to follow game rules exactly and get extremely upset when rules are broken. Meltdowns for football flags being one inch less visible than they're supposed to be. Games give structure that students can follow on their own without authority. Is lacking an authority figure a trigger, or is a root of ODD wanting to be in charge, which you can be in a game, but resenting others when they have the authority?



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26 Nov 2018, 8:10 pm

It says on some paperwork from when I was a kid that ODD was suspected. I think in my case it was because people were not aware of my Aspergers & other disabilities & issues. I had LOTS of fights with my parents cuz of meltdowns over them not understanding my issues. I had a need for routine, predictability & I needed to be left alone when I got home from skewl because I was burnt out but I couldn't get those needs met. I struggled in skewl aLOT due to dyslexia & other related disabilities & I was also bullied & picked on a lot. Bullies would lie to get me in trouble or I would just get pushed too far & do something back to them & end up in trouble for it. I also answered rhetorical questions so I seemed like a smart alec. I tried desperately to explain my side of things/situations when I got in trouble but it came off as arguing. I tried my very best to obey authority that wasn't my parents & I respect authority but I just kept coming across like I wasn't cuz of all my issues.


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26 Nov 2018, 9:26 pm

I deal with a ton of customers, so I'm obviously going to run into those with mental disorders. But, it isn't my job to diagnose what people have. I realized that I just need to make a reasonable effort to help our customers. If they insist on arguing or talking over me my job with them is done, and I'll just "back away."



Benjamin the Donkey
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26 Nov 2018, 9:49 pm

While a real ODD problem isn't a good thing, I think that fact that we have an official diagnosis for ODD and not, say, SAD (Subservience to Authority Dosorder) says something about our society--only one extreme end of the spectrum is pathologized.

Sometimes, authority should be resisted.


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Arganger
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27 Nov 2018, 1:04 pm

starcats wrote:
Thanks for this post. I teach high school and while all teenagers defy authority a little bit, there are always one or two that take this to an extreme. I don't think I've ever had one with an actual ODD diagnosis, but it's what I attribute to their behavior, inside my own head, not publicly.

I have noticed these students are triggered when a teacher calls them out in front of others and are unreachable when they have an audience and find a way to make a teacher look bad. They are just fine one on one when it is with a tone of support and understanding, but will shut out one on one attention if there was any previous authoritative interaction. Do you have any suggestions for how to repair a relationship once a person with ODD sees the other negatively? I try to always be in the moment with what each person needs, but there are occasions that I just have to tell people what to do for physical safety of others or to keep class on track.

I was also wondering if you think there is any correlation between ODD and being rigidly rule-bound. I know it's more of an autistically associated trait, but I find that the people I see as having ODD need others to follow game rules exactly and get extremely upset when rules are broken. Meltdowns for football flags being one inch less visible than they're supposed to be. Games give structure that students can follow on their own without authority. Is lacking an authority figure a trigger, or is a root of ODD wanting to be in charge, which you can be in a game, but resenting others when they have the authority?


It can be hard with teachers, I've myself had a lot of really bad experiences relating to school and teachers, so they are very hard to trust in the first place. I've known of times because of this that I was starting to like a teacher and then they did something wrong and I wouldn't interact with them again for a very long time. Even when someone says they are a teacher now I tend to grimace a bit.

Not to say I've never had a good teacher, in fact the good ones always stand out and stay in my memory. It's one of the things I like about my current school, both every teacher here is a good one that cares about the students, and the school is set up in such a way as to avoid needing a power balance, the teachers are there to help the students, not be in charge.

I am told by others that I tend to be a little controlling, especially in games. No one will play monopoly with me anymore because of that, and I would often step away from gym class because of other kids not listening to me or my ideas and me getting very frustrated. However, due to also being autistic I have no clue which it is from, sorry to say.

All I can really say is;
Time
Listen to what they have to say
If you notice a pattern of certain behaviors you have to stop, take them aside before it happens again and they are calmer, and see if you both can come with a solution that works for both of you.
Always treat them with respect and dignity when speaking with them.

Nothing is guaranteed 100% to work however, as people are different. That is simply what I would want.


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Suspected; PTSD (Treated, as my counselor did notice), possible PCOS, PMDD, Learning disabilities (Sure of it, unknown what they are), possibly something wrong with immune system (Sick about as much as I'm not) Possible EDS- hyper mobility type (Will be getting tested, suggested by doctor) dysautonomia


Arganger
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27 Nov 2018, 1:18 pm

nick007 wrote:
It says on some paperwork from when I was a kid that ODD was suspected. I think in my case it was because people were not aware of my Aspergers & other disabilities & issues. I had LOTS of fights with my parents cuz of meltdowns over them not understanding my issues. I had a need for routine, predictability & I needed to be left alone when I got home from skewl because I was burnt out but I couldn't get those needs met. I struggled in skewl aLOT due to dyslexia & other related disabilities & I was also bullied & picked on a lot. Bullies would lie to get me in trouble or I would just get pushed too far & do something back to them & end up in trouble for it. I also answered rhetorical questions so I seemed like a smart alec. I tried desperately to explain my side of things/situations when I got in trouble but it came off as arguing. I tried my very best to obey authority that wasn't my parents & I respect authority but I just kept coming across like I wasn't cuz of all my issues.


There is a problem of autistic kids being wrongfully diagnosed with ODD for those reasons.


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Suspected; PTSD (Treated, as my counselor did notice), possible PCOS, PMDD, Learning disabilities (Sure of it, unknown what they are), possibly something wrong with immune system (Sick about as much as I'm not) Possible EDS- hyper mobility type (Will be getting tested, suggested by doctor) dysautonomia


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27 Nov 2018, 1:19 pm

Does a person have to have an ASD to have ODD?

Or can ODD manifest all by itself?



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27 Nov 2018, 1:21 pm

Fnord wrote:
Does a person have to have an ASD to have ODD?

Or can ODD manifest all by itself?
Odd & ASD can both exist separately thou there are some who have both


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Arganger
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27 Nov 2018, 1:28 pm

Fnord wrote:
Does a person have to have an ASD to have ODD?

Or can ODD manifest all by itself?


ODD commonly manifests by itself, especially after a traumatic experience, there are some diagnostic professionals that won't even diagnose them together due to some of the overlap.

It is more common in autistic kids than NT kids though.


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Diagnosed autistic level 2, ODD, anxiety, dyspraxic, essential tremors, depression (Doubted), CAPD, hyper mobility syndrome
Suspected; PTSD (Treated, as my counselor did notice), possible PCOS, PMDD, Learning disabilities (Sure of it, unknown what they are), possibly something wrong with immune system (Sick about as much as I'm not) Possible EDS- hyper mobility type (Will be getting tested, suggested by doctor) dysautonomia