Why America is the World’s First Poor Rich Country

Page 4 of 4 [ 64 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4

Aristophanes
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 10 Apr 2014
Age: 43
Gender: Male
Posts: 3,603
Location: USA

20 Dec 2018, 2:10 pm

techstepgenr8tion wrote:
This could be my tilt but, considering how I've had to struggle to get by - even graduating college highest honors, even having an IQ in the 120's range, it's not that I haven't tried - it's more like I've found out how active the 'devil take the hindmost' aspect of things is. We don't really care about cultivating talent in a lot of places, likely more often we see it as a threat to our own survival if we're in that person's path to rise and so we play knowledge-keepaway games in the workplace, especially if we have our own niche software for accounting or the like that the person's college education can't prepare them to know inside out.

I've really had to take a much more Hobbesian view of life, again (had this in my early 20's when I had something like a full social relapse of high school at a place I worked), and I have to circle back to the sense that humanity lives with an underlying primal hatred that it seems like a large part of the animal kingdom shares, ie. kill anything that looks like me, wants the same food, might want the same job or same kind of partner, and that primal hatred just gets masked in this non-stop game of never-serious joking, evasion, and refusal to deal with problems (the nod-nod wink-wink in that seems to be that a lot of the problems are benefiting certain people and if they are they need to stay).

This is where I do think our current intellectual elite got so infatuated with their credentials, started rubber-stamping themselves in the Ivy League schools, and in that sort of generic elite-making machine actual talent and natural ability got lost along the way and replaced by entitlement. This is one of those areas where I do believe that current social media, for all of it's known problems, also gives the freakish natural talents, ie. the Goethe's of our generation, the ability to cut through the bureaucratic red tape and actually be heard. I really hope something does come of that, ie. superior ideas on economics and incentives or tweaks/tuning to culture should have enough impetus that, if launched right, they'll infect our way of doing things for practical reasons and anyone whose benefiting from shortfalls in the way of these things would have a difficult time stopping a change if it's coming up from the bottom.

I think one thing is urgent - unless we want the next decade to be a decade of pogroms in the west we absolutely have to untether economic success and 'right to live'. That sort of ugly stick might have worked when there were gainful jobs available for everyone (ie. jobs that they could make ends meet on) but that's rapidly becoming a thing of the past. I get a bit horrified to when my parents or close family members, if I mention UBI go 'gasp!! But that's... socialism!'. I ask em what their answer is to the notion that if we hit high enough unemployment numbers, ie. above 20% somewhere or beyond, that we'll have the worst kind of political revolution - they won't follow that line of thought and instead just say 'work hard and outrun em!'. What grieves the heck out of me is they're really decent people otherwise but it's like the Stockholm syndrome on this one goes all the way to their core and back out. This whole thing is still running on a lot of self-delusion for a lot of people and if anything it's not getting knocked out of enough people fast enough.


First post here in four months (had an issue that gave me a meltdown here, so I put the site aside for a while). As usual, I agree with what you're saying (in it's entirety on this post, even your personal history sounded like mine). What a lot of people don't understand is that within 50 years there will be no such thing as 'human labor'. We're starting to see robotics really hammer the human workforce right now, but we're just at the very, very start. People don't understand that virtually no one is immune, even surgeons will eventually be replaced. You and I know because we're programmers, but the layman has no idea what's really coming down the pipeline (most have heard it they just don't believe it or want to believe it) and they're treating it as if our current economic system can handle the changes: it cannot. Once human labor has no value because a machine can do the job better and cheaper we'll need some other system to divide our resources among the population.

I have no idea how we're going to navigate that problem, it's one humanity has never faced. I see two nightmare scenarios unfolding though and they do scare the hell out of me: the first is the sci-fi corporate/ghetto dystopia where the people that are consolidating power now control the machines and force all the poor (previously middle class) into ghettos where they get tossed scraps of resources, and the only reason they're allowed to live is because the wealthy enjoy lobbing bricks on those less fortunate than themselves. I doubt this scenario will unfold, but you never know, there are some real sick people out there and they tend to congregate at the top. The second scenario that concerns me won't concern most people, but it should concern autistics: we keep our economic system unchanged and invent jobs that are machine unfriendly-- i.e. social jobs that are all about human interaction, such as sales, legal, etc.

This issue is something we need to be talking about right now, not in 10 years when all the major changes drop like a ton of bricks. As I said, we're already seeing problems and we're just at the very, very start, and as time goes on these changes will come quicker and quicker (human achievement has been on a logarithmic curve since civilization).



Kraichgauer
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 12 Apr 2010
Gender: Male
Posts: 47,783
Location: Spokane area, Washington state.

20 Dec 2018, 2:50 pm

LoveNotHate wrote:
Piobaire wrote:
Total public debt outstanding has jumped by $1.9 trillion since President Trump took office. By the end of Trump’s first term, the debt is expected to rise by $4.4 trillion despite historically low unemployment, relatively low interest rates and robust growth.

Tax cuts for the rich on your children's credit card

Hopefully, Congress can push through budget cuts to bring it down.


Or better yet, maybe we can reverse those damn tax cuts.


_________________
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


ASPartOfMe
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 25 Aug 2013
Age: 66
Gender: Male
Posts: 34,416
Location: Long Island, New York

20 Dec 2018, 7:31 pm

Aristophanes wrote:
techstepgenr8tion wrote:
This could be my tilt but, considering how I've had to struggle to get by - even graduating college highest honors, even having an IQ in the 120's range, it's not that I haven't tried - it's more like I've found out how active the 'devil take the hindmost' aspect of things is. We don't really care about cultivating talent in a lot of places, likely more often we see it as a threat to our own survival if we're in that person's path to rise and so we play knowledge-keepaway games in the workplace, especially if we have our own niche software for accounting or the like that the person's college education can't prepare them to know inside out.

I've really had to take a much more Hobbesian view of life, again (had this in my early 20's when I had something like a full social relapse of high school at a place I worked), and I have to circle back to the sense that humanity lives with an underlying primal hatred that it seems like a large part of the animal kingdom shares, ie. kill anything that looks like me, wants the same food, might want the same job or same kind of partner, and that primal hatred just gets masked in this non-stop game of never-serious joking, evasion, and refusal to deal with problems (the nod-nod wink-wink in that seems to be that a lot of the problems are benefiting certain people and if they are they need to stay).

This is where I do think our current intellectual elite got so infatuated with their credentials, started rubber-stamping themselves in the Ivy League schools, and in that sort of generic elite-making machine actual talent and natural ability got lost along the way and replaced by entitlement. This is one of those areas where I do believe that current social media, for all of it's known problems, also gives the freakish natural talents, ie. the Goethe's of our generation, the ability to cut through the bureaucratic red tape and actually be heard. I really hope something does come of that, ie. superior ideas on economics and incentives or tweaks/tuning to culture should have enough impetus that, if launched right, they'll infect our way of doing things for practical reasons and anyone whose benefiting from shortfalls in the way of these things would have a difficult time stopping a change if it's coming up from the bottom.

I think one thing is urgent - unless we want the next decade to be a decade of pogroms in the west we absolutely have to untether economic success and 'right to live'. That sort of ugly stick might have worked when there were gainful jobs available for everyone (ie. jobs that they could make ends meet on) but that's rapidly becoming a thing of the past. I get a bit horrified to when my parents or close family members, if I mention UBI go 'gasp!! But that's... socialism!'. I ask em what their answer is to the notion that if we hit high enough unemployment numbers, ie. above 20% somewhere or beyond, that we'll have the worst kind of political revolution - they won't follow that line of thought and instead just say 'work hard and outrun em!'. What grieves the heck out of me is they're really decent people otherwise but it's like the Stockholm syndrome on this one goes all the way to their core and back out. This whole thing is still running on a lot of self-delusion for a lot of people and if anything it's not getting knocked out of enough people fast enough.


First post here in four months (had an issue that gave me a meltdown here, so I put the site aside for a while). As usual, I agree with what you're saying (in it's entirety on this post, even your personal history sounded like mine). What a lot of people don't understand is that within 50 years there will be no such thing as 'human labor'. We're starting to see robotics really hammer the human workforce right now, but we're just at the very, very start. People don't understand that virtually no one is immune, even surgeons will eventually be replaced. You and I know because we're programmers, but the layman has no idea what's really coming down the pipeline (most have heard it they just don't believe it or want to believe it) and they're treating it as if our current economic system can handle the changes: it cannot. Once human labor has no value because a machine can do the job better and cheaper we'll need some other system to divide our resources among the population.

I have no idea how we're going to navigate that problem, it's one humanity has never faced. I see two nightmare scenarios unfolding though and they do scare the hell out of me: the first is the sci-fi corporate/ghetto dystopia where the people that are consolidating power now control the machines and force all the poor (previously middle class) into ghettos where they get tossed scraps of resources, and the only reason they're allowed to live is because the wealthy enjoy lobbing bricks on those less fortunate than themselves. I doubt this scenario will unfold, but you never know, there are some real sick people out there and they tend to congregate at the top. The second scenario that concerns me won't concern most people, but it should concern autistics: we keep our economic system unchanged and invent jobs that are machine unfriendly-- i.e. social jobs that are all about human interaction, such as sales, legal, etc.

This issue is something we need to be talking about right now, not in 10 years when all the major changes drop like a ton of bricks. As I said, we're already seeing problems and we're just at the very, very start, and as time goes on these changes will come quicker and quicker (human achievement has been on a logarithmic curve since civilization).


The assumption is as with previous technological shifts, while some people got screwed the economy handled it and most moved forward, it is always going to work out that way.


_________________
Professionally Identified and joined WP August 26, 2013
DSM 5: Autism Spectrum Disorder, DSM IV: Aspergers Moderate Severity

It is Autism Acceptance Month

“My autism is not a superpower. It also isn’t some kind of god-forsaken, endless fountain of suffering inflicted on my family. It’s just part of who I am as a person”. - Sara Luterman


Aristophanes
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 10 Apr 2014
Age: 43
Gender: Male
Posts: 3,603
Location: USA

20 Dec 2018, 7:44 pm

ASPartOfMe wrote:
The assumption is as with previous technological shifts, while some people got screwed the economy handled it and most moved forward, it is always going to work out that way.

Yeah, the problem I have with this shift (and I've worked in tech before, I've been one of the people driving it at one point in my life), is that it's not going to be 'some' people that get screwed, it's possibly going to be the vast majority that get screwed. Prior to the advent of modern warfare if the vast majority were getting screwed they'd grab their pitchforks and storm the castle, that's not feasible anymore, a peasant revolt is no match for our modern war machines. Within 15 years they're all going to be mechanized, so it's not like the people in power even have to worry about carrying around the soldier class this time around. At the end of the day it's all about power, and when the elite have machines to do everything they need for them the poor and middle class are not just redundant, they'll be seen as pests stealing the resources that the elite believe belong to them exclusively.



Piobaire
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 28 Dec 2017
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,347
Location: Smackass Gap, NC

Kraichgauer
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 12 Apr 2010
Gender: Male
Posts: 47,783
Location: Spokane area, Washington state.

22 Dec 2018, 5:10 pm

Piobaire wrote:


Tax cuts for the rich and corporations should come with strings attached: if proof that more employees are hired and work place improvements are made are not the result, then the tax cut will be not only rescinded, but rescinded with taxable interest.
Or better yet, just get rid of the damn cuts.


_________________
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


auntblabby
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 12 Feb 2010
Gender: Male
Posts: 113,699
Location: the island of defective toy santas

22 Dec 2018, 9:21 pm

too many MAGAs are willing to sell their fellow MAGAs down the river, thinking they too can become Richie riches, get away with paying no taxes also, and leave their fellow MAGAs behind to pick up the tab, laughing up their sleeves at the whole scene.



LoveNotHate
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 12 Oct 2013
Gender: Female
Posts: 6,195
Location: USA

23 Dec 2018, 1:01 am

People with household incomes over $200,000 & non-alternative minimum rate .... it's about $5,400/yr savings.

Thank you sugar daddy Trump!

$5400/12 = $441 more per month!

Image


_________________
After a failure, the easiest thing to do is to blame someone else.


Jo_B1_Kenobi
Velociraptor
Velociraptor

User avatar

Joined: 8 Jan 2016
Age: 54
Gender: Female
Posts: 412
Location: UK

23 Dec 2018, 8:45 am

Gallia wrote:
TW1ZTY wrote:
I heard things aren't going too well in the UK either.


Yes, homelessness is on the rise.

"There was an increase of 15% from 2016 to 2017, while since 2010 rough sleeping estimates show an increase of 169%."
(data from homeless link)


It's true that homelessness is up in the UK but the increases you're quoting are based on a single snapshot datapoint by a minority of local authorities. The data generally is lower than this. Here is all of the data...

Image


The data is from this article if anyone wants to read it in full...
Homelessness Monitor England 2018


That said in the UK we do still have the NHS and Social Security so we do care for our sick whether or not they have the money and we still support people who can't support themseves. The UK's not perfect by any means but the US approach seems scary and inhuman to me.


_________________
"That's no moon - it's a spacestation."

Diagnosed with Autism Spectrum Disorder (ICD10)


cemil
Pileated woodpecker
Pileated woodpecker

Joined: 20 Nov 2018
Age: 35
Gender: Male
Posts: 196

07 Jan 2019, 8:25 am

techstepgenr8tion wrote:
This could be my tilt but, considering how I've had to struggle to get by - even graduating college highest honors, even having an IQ in the 120's range, it's not that I haven't tried - it's more like I've found out how active the 'devil take the hindmost' aspect of things is. We don't really care about cultivating talent in a lot of places, likely more often we see it as a threat to our own survival if we're in that person's path to rise and so we play knowledge-keepaway games in the workplace, especially if we have our own niche software for accounting or the like that the person's college education can't prepare them to know inside out.

I've really had to take a much more Hobbesian view of life, again (had this in my early 20's when I had something like a full social relapse of high school at a place I worked), and I have to circle back to the sense that humanity lives with an underlying primal hatred that it seems like a large part of the animal kingdom shares, ie. kill anything that looks like me, wants the same food, might want the same job or same kind of partner, and that primal hatred just gets masked in this non-stop game of never-serious joking, evasion, and refusal to deal with problems (the nod-nod wink-wink in that seems to be that a lot of the problems are benefiting certain people and if they are they need to stay).

This is where I do think our current intellectual elite got so infatuated with their credentials, started rubber-stamping themselves in the Ivy League schools, and in that sort of generic elite-making machine actual talent and natural ability got lost along the way and replaced by entitlement. This is one of those areas where I do believe that current social media, for all of it's known problems, also gives the freakish natural talents, ie. the Goethe's of our generation, the ability to cut through the bureaucratic red tape and actually be heard. I really hope something does come of that, ie. superior ideas on economics and incentives or tweaks/tuning to culture should have enough impetus that, if launched right, they'll infect our way of doing things for practical reasons and anyone whose benefiting from shortfalls in the way of these things would have a difficult time stopping a change if it's coming up from the bottom.

I think one thing is urgent - unless we want the next decade to be a decade of pogroms in the west we absolutely have to untether economic success and 'right to live'. That sort of ugly stick might have worked when there were gainful jobs available for everyone (ie. jobs that they could make ends meet on) but that's rapidly becoming a thing of the past. I get a bit horrified to when my parents or close family members, if I mention UBI go 'gasp!! But that's... socialism!'. I ask em what their answer is to the notion that if we hit high enough unemployment numbers, ie. above 20% somewhere or beyond, that we'll have the worst kind of political revolution - they won't follow that line of thought and instead just say 'work hard and outrun em!'. What grieves the heck out of me is they're really decent people otherwise but it's like the Stockholm syndrome on this one goes all the way to their core and back out. This whole thing is still running on a lot of self-delusion for a lot of people and if anything it's not getting knocked out of enough people fast enough.



They see us as rats , so.. when the biggest Rat just couldn't leave this world alone.. Image



cemil
Pileated woodpecker
Pileated woodpecker

Joined: 20 Nov 2018
Age: 35
Gender: Male
Posts: 196

07 Jan 2019, 8:31 am

cemil wrote:
techstepgenr8tion wrote:
This could be my tilt but, considering how I've had to struggle to get by - even graduating college highest honors, even having an IQ in the 120's range, it's not that I haven't tried - it's more like I've found out how active the 'devil take the hindmost' aspect of things is. We don't really care about cultivating talent in a lot of places, likely more often we see it as a threat to our own survival if we're in that person's path to rise and so we play knowledge-keepaway games in the workplace, especially if we have our own niche software for accounting or the like that the person's college education can't prepare them to know inside out.

I've really had to take a much more Hobbesian view of life, again (had this in my early 20's when I had something like a full social relapse of high school at a place I worked), and I have to circle back to the sense that humanity lives with an underlying primal hatred that it seems like a large part of the animal kingdom shares, ie. kill anything that looks like me, wants the same food, might want the same job or same kind of partner, and that primal hatred just gets masked in this non-stop game of never-serious joking, evasion, and refusal to deal with problems (the nod-nod wink-wink in that seems to be that a lot of the problems are benefiting certain people and if they are they need to stay).

This is where I do think our current intellectual elite got so infatuated with their credentials, started rubber-stamping themselves in the Ivy League schools, and in that sort of generic elite-making machine actual talent and natural ability got lost along the way and replaced by entitlement. This is one of those areas where I do believe that current social media, for all of it's known problems, also gives the freakish natural talents, ie. the Goethe's of our generation, the ability to cut through the bureaucratic red tape and actually be heard. I really hope something does come of that, ie. superior ideas on economics and incentives or tweaks/tuning to culture should have enough impetus that, if launched right, they'll infect our way of doing things for practical reasons and anyone whose benefiting from shortfalls in the way of these things would have a difficult time stopping a change if it's coming up from the bottom.

I think one thing is urgent - unless we want the next decade to be a decade of pogroms in the west we absolutely have to untether economic success and 'right to live'. That sort of ugly stick might have worked when there were gainful jobs available for everyone (ie. jobs that they could make ends meet on) but that's rapidly becoming a thing of the past. I get a bit horrified to when my parents or close family members, if I mention UBI go 'gasp!! But that's... socialism!'. I ask em what their answer is to the notion that if we hit high enough unemployment numbers, ie. above 20% somewhere or beyond, that we'll have the worst kind of political revolution - they won't follow that line of thought and instead just say 'work hard and outrun em!'. What grieves the heck out of me is they're really decent people otherwise but it's like the Stockholm syndrome on this one goes all the way to their core and back out. This whole thing is still running on a lot of self-delusion for a lot of people and if anything it's not getting knocked out of enough people fast enough.



They see us as rats , so.. when the biggest Rat just couldn't leave this world alone.. Image



Hillary 24/7 juggling, habitually lying, pathologically flip flopping , zero out-out-the-box thinking.. Why is he so terrible omfg america explane!! !!



cemil
Pileated woodpecker
Pileated woodpecker

Joined: 20 Nov 2018
Age: 35
Gender: Male
Posts: 196

10 Jan 2019, 6:28 am

Piobaire wrote:


ordinary americans can't even pay their next bill nowadays, pay check to pay check, survive for another day .. mortgage, insurance, food , gas, gasoline.. no money left to save, no money left to travel.. let alone to care about illegal immigrants. Illegal immigrants can't pay their next bill either.



auntblabby
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 12 Feb 2010
Gender: Male
Posts: 113,699
Location: the island of defective toy santas

11 Jan 2019, 1:39 am

^^^the diabolical one, who rules this world and has a majority of human agents doing his bidding, likes it just like that.



Piobaire
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 28 Dec 2017
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,347
Location: Smackass Gap, NC

auntblabby
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 12 Feb 2010
Gender: Male
Posts: 113,699
Location: the island of defective toy santas

11 Jan 2019, 10:16 pm

and the MAGAs are just fine with that.



aspiesavant
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 8 Feb 2015
Posts: 579

21 Jan 2019, 5:09 am

LoveNotHate wrote:
Piobaire wrote:
Most Americans are part of the elite 1% wealthy of the world.

For example, compared to India, our low skill, low wage workers earn like their top PHD neurosurgeons earn.


If you look only at income, yes. But not if you consider living cost.

The cost of rent, food & other necessities tend to be strongly correlated with the typical income of a particular part of the world. The higher the typical income, the higher the cost of rent, the cost of food & other necessities tend to be.

auntblabby wrote:
and the MAGAs are just fine with that.


Actually, the decline of the White middle class and the overall decrease of the living standard of poor Whites is probably the main reason why Trump became so popular among poor & middle class Whites.

I'm not sure why they believe a billionaire will solve their problems, though, but many seem to think he can.