[ POLL ] Traditional Masculinity.

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Due to you being uncomfortable with politically incorrect facts, you mean?

Why is it you reality deniers love to shut down every discussion that debunks your nonsense?

What makes you so afraid to face the facts and learn from them?

Admitting you're wrong doesn't hurt and can in fact be a valuable experience. You might want to give it a try...

Aspiesavant has been banned. Carry on.

Thank you. Please disregard my previous post.

Let's all get back on-topic.

Oh Thank God! (or rather, thank the mods! )

I think the problem with the article and with many men's struggle to accept even the concept of "toxic masculinity" is that they can't seem to understand that by describing certain negative traits that have been reinforced by our culture like violence and aggression and are generally attributed to "masculinity" as toxic we are not labelling ALL MASCULINITY as toxic, so they can't help but see it as an attack on their gender identity. When really, it's more like this: a few months ago I remember there being a recall of spinach in my area, because some of it while being processed had been contaminated with E. coli; at the time, I could have said "I'm not going to be buying spinach for the next little while, it's been contaminated"; if I had done so, would it be fair to then say to me "Why do you hate leafy greens so m uch, why are you discriminating?" It should be understood that obviously I wouldn't be talking about all spinach or all greens, just the stuff that had been recently contaminated. Saying I don't want to eat contaminated spinach doesn't mean I hate spinach now. So saying I don't like toxic masculinity does not mean I dislike all things considered masculine, in the same way.

I don't know why the men who have a problem with the term "toxic masculinity" can't make this distinction and just assume everyone who talks about toxic masculinity hates all men and everything "manly", or that we want to "ban all men"--which is the height of hyperbole. I think it's an irrational, emotional knee-jerk response. (Which is ironic because of how much sexist men like to accuse women of being that all the time).

For some people, "Toxic Masculinity" (and submission to it) is not just acceptable, but it is THE proper way of life. Such people simply cannot see the damage they are causing (or enabling); or, if they do, then the are blind to the fact that they caused the damage, and place all of the blame on the very people they have damaged...

"If you weren't such a wimp, that punch in the jaw wouldn't have hurt you!"

"Aw honey! See what you made me do? Go put some ice on it and don't let the neighbors see it."

"If you didn't want it stolen, you should've held on to it better!"

"Dressed up like that, she was certainly asking for it!"

... which was how 'Traditional' males were supposed to behave when I was growing up.

So, to repeat the general theme of this thread, Traditional Masculinity, which is marked by stoicism, competitiveness, dominance and aggression is, on the whole, harmful.

I see nothing wrong with being stoic. Or is that a "dog whistle" now or something? I ask in all seriousness because it's hard to keep up these days with what's been deemed as such.

The problem isn't with stoicism, it's with teaching boys not to express their feelings, not to have feelings, not to understand their own feelings. That leads to many problems later in life that could be avoided if we taught both boys and girls what feelings are, that we all have them, and how to express them in a healthy way.

I am a stoic person by nature, I don't express a lot of emotional externally and I tend to be quiet and withdrawn when under stress. This doesn't mean I wasn't taught as a child how to recognize my own feelings and how to express them when I wish to. So you're right, there's nothing wrong with being stoic. The problem is it's not stoicism that is being encouraged in boys, it's denial of human emotion and not providing them with healthy ways to express their feelings. "Boys don't cry" and all that sexist nonsense, that's the problem.

Well ... I think (for example) that it's alright to treat minor injuries or illnesses yourself and downplay the pain or symptoms, or to quietly weep at a funeral for a loved one (unless you just can't help but let it all out); but to not let your closest relatives and friends know that you have a terminal illness until the last possible moment, or to sit there stone-faced and barely breathing as they lower your parent, sibling, spouse or child into a grave because it's not the 'manly' thing to do ... that's just plain wrong.

I've had to carry on with work after seeing co-workers die horribly, and my siblings and I had to physically support each other during our dad's funeral. Life isn't a battlefield, my friends. You should be allowed to bring your own world to a halt and deal with pain and grief on your own terms, without some macho a$$hole making you feel even worse for expressing your feelings.

It's all well and good to accept people who don't fall into traditional gender roles and stereotypes, but that goes both ways. The idea that on the whole, the traits listed here are harmful is something I can't agree with. Moreover, the idea that these traits are entirely socialised is something I take issue with as well. Men have much higher levels of testosterone than women, and testosterone plays an enormous role in influencing some of these behaviours.
https://www.healthline.com/health/low-testosterone/effects-on-body#8

In addition, these traits actually also help society thrive. If you think about a business/company, or working environment, all of the traits listed are assets. Stoicism produces results. Competitiveness and a desire for dominance are assets to a company's ability to out-do competitors. Aggressiveness, when defined as "determination and forcefulness" rather than "hostile and violent behaviour", helps companies stay afloat at their worst and thrive at their best. Without these traits in business, I'd imagine society would be a lot less advanced.

So to conclude, if some men want to be stoic, competitive, dominant or aggressive, we as a society should only interfere with that on a case-by case basis when it is harmful to others. Otherwise, leave "traditionally masculine" men be how they wish.

I would say, any stereotype, even if in line with the majority, is harmful if it is seen as the only option.
It is unhealthy when people are isolated from their true emotions because either "boys don't cry" or "girls never fight" or any other stereotype like that.
Do you know what subtle social hell my female classmates made because I was competitive and a girl shouldn't be like that in their world?

So, while I agree that the traditional stereotype is unhealthy, making an opposite stereotype of a peaceful, never confrontantional and openly emotional "new male" would not be any better. It's just narrowness of these stereotypes that is unhealthy.

I try to be peaceful, reasonable, and upbeat at work and at church. In both places, people were shocked as hell when they found out the hard way that I can be "pushed too far".

Of course, according to them, they were "just joking" when they said those mean, racist, sexist things in my presence, and that I was "over-reacting" when I got in their faces and called them out on their behavior.

Imagine my reaction to the son and grandson of a church founder who said in public that women should "know their place" and stick to being wives and mothers (in that order), while leaving the income-earning to their husbands.



Yeah ... that's about right ...

I'm not really surprised. It seems all the "experts" have lost their minds.

Next they'll be telling us to cut our balls off or something.

Yes, everyone wants all men to cut their balls off. Then we can stop reproducing entirely and the human species can die out. It's a win for everyone!

Definitely everyone thinks this way, bravo for noticing. "Ban all men! Down with humanity!"

Your response is very rational, just as rational as us people who think toxic masculinity is not the best idea are irrational. You win the logic game! Where shall we send your prize?

Women no longer have to defer to men or depend on men for support. Deal with it.

Non-whites no longer have to live in fear of whites, either. Deal with that, as well.

Racism and sexism will not be tolerated on this website. If you can't deal with that, then YOU don't belong here, either!

I know rules are rules, but a lot of people just react to bad experiences. I just think it's a better idea to let them express that ugliness here where there is a good community that can talk some sense into them.

I like to see myself as both the artist and the warrior. In some ways, I am. I even wear German helmets sometimes to show that I'm a war supporter. Some seniors around my area like it because they know that I'd rather be fighting for my country than hanging around the park smoking Pot all day. I'm in Canada BTW. If I was fit and spry, I would be doing that. There is one old man who hates it, but I don't let him stop me from expressing myself. I'm too old and fat to be in the Army and I think my helmets make me look cuddly.