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magz
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22 Feb 2019, 7:07 am

I was rather surprised when some of American women on this forum mentioned they weren't taken seriously because of being female. It's something foreign to me – women in my country are expected to be well-organized and well-informed, perfectly capable of managing affairs.
That's actually something I struggle with but it's a whole different story ;)

I also don't see being ditzy as a sign of attractiveness here. Even the over-sexualized pictures that you can't avoid seeing don't suggest a ditzy character. I would rather say, a woman is expected to intellectually match her partner so hiding intelligence and success would rather spoil one's chances.

Is this just local culture or rather both ditzy sexy doll and fifty shades of grey belong more to fantasy than reality?

Well, we do have some problematic stereotype here: a selfless mother. It's strong, it's prevalent, it's horribly destructive for nobody is really selfless and playing selfless ends up with lots of unmet needs and problems.

Do you notice these kinds of stereotypes around you?


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Amity
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22 Feb 2019, 9:25 am

Its quite mixed here, the marriage bar was lifted for women in the 70s and we have elements in our constitution which protects the mother's right to stay home. Some parts of the country would be quite traditional with the mum staying home till the children are in school, but for economic reasons, women's participation in the workforce is necessary.

Employers dont tend to employ ditzy people, so I don't believe that it's a thing here either. Perhaps among adolescent and young adult groups, those who don't need to be employable just yet, it could be a thing there.

The unmarried childless woman is expected to be an unstoppable force of nature. This is the category I'm flailing about in.

Then there are what I call super women... work full time in specialised roles, can drive a minibus and have a gaggle of kids, they appear to have a successful relationship and happy lives. Don't know how they do it, but it sets a high benchmark for other women.

In general I think it's the grounded type of women that men seeking a long-term relationship are interested in. So I guess that's the opposite of ditzy.

Perhaps being ditzy is related to economic status, aka don't need to work, or develop independence... can be reliant on another source to provide. People might be keen to emulate an image of new wealth. I put ditzy in the fantasy category, from my perspective it's not seen as a desirable trait for serious relationships in Ireland.

Just had a thought, could ditzy women be considered attractive for one night stand culture...



kraftiekortie
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22 Feb 2019, 3:00 pm

I've never been into ditzy women.



Sweetleaf
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22 Feb 2019, 3:43 pm

Well not sure its necessarily a stereotype but the idea of wearing high heels.

Essentially science says they are terrible for the health of your feet and even your back. But not only do women regularly wear the damn things, it almost seems like its expected. I flat out refuse, but I have gotten crap for it or have people react like I'm some kind of freak for never wearing them.

Perhaps though that is not the stereotype, but rather the stereotype is women sacrifice their own comfort and even health to look good. Like its kind of expected women be willing to put their own comfort aside if it means looking good/providing eye candy to whoever's looking. Then of course some of the standards of 'what looks good' are actually kind of unrealistic so some people go to excessive lengths and become obsessed with the perfect body...some getting plastic surgery to the extent they are putting themselves in danger.

Like this poor deluded woman:

She's likely going to die of asphyxiation someday, pretty sure they talk to her son in the documentary to...and he won't speak to her anymore because its too painful for him to watch her kill herself.

Also not sure this is just a U.S thing but as this is the country I am in I see it here mostly.


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magz
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23 Feb 2019, 6:06 am

Amity wrote:
Its quite mixed here, the marriage bar was lifted for women in the 70s

Wow, it looks like socialism has done something useful here after all... While Poland is viewed as conservative, a working mother has been within the social norm at least since my parents' generation.

Amity wrote:
The unmarried childless woman is expected to be an unstoppable force of nature. This is the category I'm flailing about in.

Sorry, I don't really know what it means. Is it viewed that a single woman is secretly driven to have children? Or something else?

Amity wrote:
Then there are what I call super women... work full time in specialised roles, can drive a minibus and have a gaggle of kids, they appear to have a successful relationship and happy lives. Don't know how they do it, but it sets a high benchmark for other women.

Oh yes, we do have them too... I tried to be one and burned up in three years :/
By the way, my mother stayed at home and didn't work professionally but she is anything but subordinate to her husband :D Their marriage is stable.

Amity wrote:
In general I think it's the grounded type of women that men seeking a long-term relationship are interested in. So I guess that's the opposite of ditzy.

I don't really know what guys seek in general. From my observations, they seem to prefer someone similar to them.


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magz
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23 Feb 2019, 6:44 am

Sweetleaf wrote:
Well not sure its necessarily a stereotype but the idea of wearing high heels.

Essentially science says they are terrible for the health of your feet and even your back. But not only do women regularly wear the damn things, it almost seems like its expected. I flat out refuse, but I have gotten crap for it or have people react like I'm some kind of freak for never wearing them.

Perhaps though that is not the stereotype, but rather the stereotype is women sacrifice their own comfort and even health to look good. Like its kind of expected women be willing to put their own comfort aside if it means looking good/providing eye candy to whoever's looking. Then of course some of the standards of 'what looks good' are actually kind of unrealistic so some people go to excessive lengths and become obsessed with the perfect body...some getting plastic surgery to the extent they are putting themselves in danger.

Like this poor deluded woman:

She's likely going to die of asphyxiation someday, pretty sure they talk to her son in the documentary to...and he won't speak to her anymore because its too painful for him to watch her kill herself.

Also not sure this is just a U.S thing but as this is the country I am in I see it here mostly.

This is rather absent here. High heels every day are rather an extravagancy unless you have very strict dress code at work. I remember Russians and Ukrainians pointing out that Polish women wear modestly and comfortably.
Thanks for your input from Colorado :)


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23 Feb 2019, 10:45 am

I think our culture (US) is going through a transformation. There is new acceptance of gender fluidity and LGBTQ folks, including in the role of spouse and parent. This is mostly among the under-40 set. I think offensive stereotyping is more prevalent in the older generations. Watching that set of trendsetters age out has been satisfying.

I feel American society is very unforgiving of the demands of parenting, often making parents (of either gender) choose between job performance and good parenting. America has a strong, often unspoken, ethic of "rugged individualism" which works against social cohesiveness and community support. This causes a lot of damage to children.

Racial equity is coming along, not always seamlessly, but gender equity lags behind it. The big crop of freshman (freshwoman?) female legislators is encouraging.

High heels? I'm with Sweetleaf. They are horrible. I've been a shoe activist for 30-some years.


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Amity
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23 Feb 2019, 3:39 pm

magz wrote:
Amity wrote:
Its quite mixed here, the marriage bar was lifted for women in the 70s

Wow, it looks like socialism has done something useful here after all... While Poland is viewed as conservative, a working mother has been within the social norm at least since my parents' generation.

Amity wrote:
The unmarried childless woman is expected to be an unstoppable force of nature. This is the category I'm flailing about in.

Sorry, I don't really know what it means. Is it viewed that a single woman is secretly driven to have children? Or something else?

Amity wrote:
Then there are what I call super women... work full time in specialised roles, can drive a minibus and have a gaggle of kids, they appear to have a successful relationship and happy lives. Don't know how they do it, but it sets a high benchmark for other women.

Oh yes, we do have them too... I tried to be one and burned up in three years :/
By the way, my mother stayed at home and didn't work professionally but she is anything but subordinate to her husband :D Their marriage is stable.

Amity wrote:
In general I think it's the grounded type of women that men seeking a long-term relationship are interested in. So I guess that's the opposite of ditzy.

I don't really know what guys seek in general. From my observations, they seem to prefer someone similar to them.


Sorry, to clarify I mean that without a husband or children to care for and devote my energies to, I should be an unstoppable force in the world, successful career, independent woman that doesn't 'need' a man type of thing.
That's not working out so well for me, as in, I'm not matching the achievements of similar peers, not even close, im flailing about in deep water, hanging on by a thread. There is too much networking involved.
Yup we have a long way to go, but as a relatively new state, I guess we need allies and the EU influence has led to more equality here for women.
Autistic burn out sucks, I've been there too, the world seems to embrace the idealism of the social model of disability, but in reality the medical model of disability is the one that I see implemented in my day to day experiences.

My grandmother's both worked in the home as caregivers and also in their families private businesses, but when my aunt in the next generation got married she had to give up her government job. It led to complete dependence on her husband, which is not a desirable outcome imo, though it was the norm at the time.



karathraceandherspecialdestiny
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23 Feb 2019, 4:16 pm

BeaArthur wrote:
High heels? I'm with Sweetleaf. They are horrible.


Ditto. I refuse to wear them, they look like torture devices. Though that might have something to do with why I've been basically unemployable my entire adult female life. They say you can't look "professional" without heels--which to me is amusing because it sounds like they are talking about professional sex workers. Heels have nothing to do with how competent I am or am not in whatever office-type job, but they are the most important indicator of competence to most other people seemingly, for some reason I will never understand.



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23 Feb 2019, 10:56 pm

This probably cuts across many cultures - I find there's a general expectation that women are good at organising social events, being a good hostess (welcoming and friendly), that sort of thing. It used to make me feel a failure because I was always too self-absorbed and socially awkward to be able to carry off that role.
Possibly that's part of the reason why I see myself as gender-neutral / androgynous, because I don't fit the usual female stereotypes.



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23 Feb 2019, 11:03 pm

My mother told me the other day that not long ago she and my aunt went out somewhere, and my aunt was wearing high heels. My mom could not understand why she would wear shoes like that when they were outside and it was freezing out, and neither can I.



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23 Feb 2019, 11:12 pm

I worry about my daughter. She watches so many American TV series, she's completely addicted to them, and she seems to have picked up from them a highly sexualised idea of what it means to be a young woman. It's all about sexy clothes and make-up and a self-absorbed, entitled attitude to life. There've been studies that show the younger generation are less empathetic and more individualistic, more narcissistic. Intelligence and knowledge doesn't seem to rate with them.
But I think it's a trend affecting all genders, not just girls.



magz
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24 Feb 2019, 7:00 am

karathraceandherspecialdestiny wrote:
BeaArthur wrote:
High heels? I'm with Sweetleaf. They are horrible.


Ditto. I refuse to wear them, they look like torture devices. Though that might have something to do with why I've been basically unemployable my entire adult female life. They say you can't look "professional" without heels--which to me is amusing because it sounds like they are talking about professional sex workers. Heels have nothing to do with how competent I am or am not in whatever office-type job, but they are the most important indicator of competence to most other people seemingly, for some reason I will never understand.

Around me: In science and engineering nobody gives a damn about one's shoes. A stereotype of a badly dressed IT specialist is actually well grounded in reality and extends to both genders.
In office work you are expected to look neat but, say, 2cm heels would not be a problem - my husband's relative works in finance management and she has quite a strict dress code but elegant shoes on a tiny heel make do.
I myself stick to sport shoes anywhere outside red carpet celebrations. Badly deformed feet run in my family, I don't want them.

It seems women wear high heels more in the countryside than in urban areas, which I find obviously illogical.


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oscarinthewild
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24 Feb 2019, 8:55 am

America women gave up their last names when they are married.. unheard in my home culture ..


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magz
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24 Feb 2019, 9:05 am

oscarinthewild wrote:
America women gave up their last names when they are married.. unheard in my home culture ..

And what is your culture?


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24 Feb 2019, 10:06 am

oscarinthewild wrote:
America women gave up their last names when they are married.. unheard in my home culture ..

Not me! Married twice, still sporting my maiden name, never changed it.
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