PDA sociopathic condition related to aspergers syndrome

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MimiR
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04 Oct 2011, 7:11 am

I clicked "Asperger's relative." That's not precisely true, as my brother has PPD-NOS that is very well controlled--enough that he's about to graduate from a four-year college (after 10 years) and is employed. My grandfather and uncle have Asperger's, and my cousin has dyslexia/dysgraphia/"and stuff" that doesn't quite reach the autism scale.

My son has PDA/dyslexia/dysgraphia/CAPD/ADHD--though the last may mostly be a result of the "and stuff" that comes along with this sort of thing.

He DOES share a number of traits with more typical autistics. At a fundamental level, he does not understand people. He's eight and recently made a comment to me about how he doesn't understand how people can "read each other's minds"--but he's aware enough that he immediately added, "I bet they can tell what other people are feeling by their expressions." I asked if he could tell what people were feeling by their expressions, and he said that he could not. It does not surprise me.

He does not grasp figures of speech--his hyperliteralism is as bad as it ever is for a "true" autistic.

He makes no social inferences. While he can read books at the 11th grade level, a 3rd grade level book with humor based on verbal irony or any kind of indirect writing is utterly lost on him.

At the same time, he has the kind of social ability that is very rarely seen. As he has grown older, he has lost much of his patience with the pettiness of most children--thank goodness--but whenever he cares to be popular, he's not just liked but adored. Kids fight over who will sit next to him. Adults believe he can do no wrong. He is so socially adept that he perfected a public routine by the age of 12 months to get adults to fawn over him. He was so good at it that every time we went into a small owner-operated business, he would come out with a gift. At the age of 3, he convinced one of my friends that he could not talk--and kept up the pretense for 6 months of weekly playdates, all while happily jabbering away to his friend when she was out of earshot. I told her again and again that he was pulling one over on her, but she didn't believe me until she saw it herself.

He is, frankly, brilliant. His IQ is in the exceptional range. He is at the same time resistant to tasks in an insanely aggravating way. This goes so many times beyond what normal children do. I happen to be very good with children. My neurotypical child has a personality that most people would consider extremely difficult, but I've tamed her behavior quite nicely, and she is better behaved than the average child her age. My son, on the other hand, is so far beyond the normal range of things that it is hard to grasp.

The basic approach of good parenting is that you give kids attention and privileges when they are good and remove these things when they are bad. There are very, very few children who, once they realize what is in their best interests, will act against it. Children with PDA do, not just once but EVERY DAY. I have taught literally dozens of children to clean up. When I was in high school and worked in a nursery, I was literally the first person who got many children to ever pick up toys.

With my son, it was a three year battle from the age of one, culminating in my declaration that he simply would not eat or leave the room except to pee until he cleaned up his toys. (I had tried literally EVERY other strategy at this point, BTW.) He held out for SEVENTEEN HOURS. And at the end, it took him 20 minutes to clean the mess. That is the kind of escalation required to achieve victory in any area with him.

School work is similarly difficult. As he is extremely gifted, we had him part time in a Kindergarten class at the age of three. When he arrived, he was writing his name. Two months later, all of his school work started to come home with the teacher's handwriting on it. He had actually convinced a 20-year veteran teacher that he could not write his name when he very well could. When I pointed that out, she was shocked that she'd been conned over something so obvious. That was how good he is. He got other kids to do all his assigned work even though he was the best reader in the class and also the most advanced in math. He became the mascot of the school--everyone fought over sitting next to him at lunch, and all the older kids fawned over him in the main atrium when he came to school everyday.

He was learning how to be better at manipulating people and was learning to see them as objects to get what he wanted. Lacking instinctive empathy, he did not manage to see a problem with this.

His lack of proper "baby" behavior had me very worried, given our family history, before he was a year old. He did not seem "autistic" to me, exactly, being almost preternaturally socially adept, but

We brought him home, and he's now homeschooled. He has never done the extreme behaviors that some children with PDA express at older ages--for example, he did urinate on the floor in fury, but that was when he realized that I really meant it when I said he had to be potty trained before the age of three. And while overbearing at times, he's mostly learned to control it so that he has maintained a good degree of popularity.

His behavior and compliance improves dramatically from year to year, but it's always a struggle. Superficial compliance is easy to get from him. It's real learning and obedience that's hard. I've been incredibly encouraged in the last year that I'm seeing a real moral foundation begin to emerge, despite his continuing inability to really understand people. With his personality, I've seen the following spectrum of possibilities:

cult leader - con artist - Bernie Madoff - politician - successful (and generally honest) businessman

At the age of 3, he was pointed squarely at cult leader. By four or five, con artist. At six, he reached Bernie Madoff--probably the most frightening of all--and now at eight, he's at the edge of politician.

I disagree tremendously with the advice to essentially maintain the illusion of total control. I think the outcomes of identified and treated adults support this disagreement--unemployability and institutionalization are NOT indications of success. In many ways, fighting this--as an authoritative figure, not authoritarian--is one of the most discouraging tasks imaginable. But the ONLY way children learn to concede to the real demands of everyday life that every functioning adult must conform to is to...concede to the real demands of life. Period.

So I do not believe on lowering expectations. Timers, warnings, built in consequences--yes, extreme ones, if minor consequences don't sink in-- and the like are all critical to ending up with a moral and grounded member of society rather than a criminal or a dysfunctional wreck.



MimiR
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04 Oct 2011, 9:32 am

Sora wrote:
I can't really figure out the difference between PDA and a combination of classical autism/Asperger's and oppositional defiant disorder. Can anybody who knows a difference point it out and explain it?

Some sort of information to how it differs from already recognised disorders that also include parts of the symptoms of PDA such as common PDDs, AD(H)D, ODD, CD, anxiety and mood disorders as well as some of the personality disorders would be very helpful to define PDA as a differential diagnosis to show if it's a valid syndrome that cannot be explained away by established diagnoses.


ODD is simply a difficult to manage child who still responds to expectations, rewards, punishments, and limitations like a NT child. ODD is, frankly, a fictitious disorder. Yes, some kids are "difficult"--some are "very difficult"--but any child with a sense of basic self-interest is not PDA. The idea of control is paramount for the PDA child to the exclusion of many typical rewards and punishments. For example, they would see it as a fair trade to be grounded to their room for a week if they ended up not finishing the evening's math. In the same way, they would fail a grade knowingly and with full comprehension of the fact they are failing in order to not have to learn the material asked of them, even if the material is both extremely easy and something they would be interested in on their own.



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04 Oct 2011, 5:29 pm

Ettina wrote:
Well, from what I've read, pretty much all PDA kids play pretend, and most do so far more than most kids. This is one difference from other autistics, who often don't play pretend or run 'scripts' rather than making stuff up.

And this pretend play is more intense. For example, you know how an NT kid might be crawling around pretending to be a dog, and then you offer the kid cookies and the kid immediately switches to yelling 'Cookies!' and grabbing them. Meanwhile a PDA kid might bark at you and try to grab the cookies with his/her mouth. Basically, they won't break pretend in situations where most kids would. This is where it can get confused with delusions, because most kids if you ask them intensely enough they'll break the pretend to admit that it's not real. A PDA kid probably won't.

Also, they'd start playing pretend in situations most people wouldn't. Part of this is the demand avoidance - a dog can't do schoolwork, right? But they might spend virtually all their time doing some kind of pretend, from when they wake up to when they go to bed.

And they tend not to outgrow pretend as quickly as most kids. I was still playing pretend (alone, not just when playing with a little kid) when I was 14. I've gradually replaced it with writing fiction, since I feel sad when I forget those great stories I thought up. (Which brings me to another thing - it seems like a lot of PDA individuals are creatively gifted, as writers or actors or whatever.)


Except that the notion that Aspies don't have an imagination or play "pretend" is a tad out-dated.

Pretty much all I did as a kid was play "pretend" from dawn 'til dusk. I was still DXed as "Asperger's."

Tony Attwood mentions AS kid's as possibly having intense fantasy worlds in The Complete Guide to Asperger's Syndrome and Kids in the Syndrome Mix. It has been suggested that females with AS are more likely to engage in "imaginative play" and "imaginative play" is mentioned in the upcoming DSM-V criteria.

Speaking personally, as an "imaginative Aspie," having an imagination doesn't grant one "social skills."


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11 Apr 2013, 10:25 am

Does one *have* to be lazy with respect to work or school with PDA? I mean, I can be a very hard worker when it suits my interest. But if it's something I hate, like the Law Review, I am a huge slacker who gets away with it for the same reasons as PDA, usually by being manipulative, dishonest, and clever. That was the case with my "extracurricular" activities in college. I ended up in sham leadership positions in some of them but didn't do anything. I also have a chronic inability--er, unwillingness-- to keep my apartment clean and neat.

But few are as dedicated as me when it comes to schoolwork (though this can vary), as well as actual work, when I feel like my performance is being evaluated.

Also, my play pretending as a child was quite extreme and sounded a lot like PDA. I would take on a role, whether it be a movie character or an animal, and basically become that character to the extent of losing touch with my original identity.



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11 Apr 2013, 10:36 am

Neuromancer wrote:
cognizant wrote:
Histrionic personality disorder. ICD-10: F60.4
Yeah, everybody is autistic... I always know that.

Don't know if anybody is autistic, but NT is a fiction. Very soon an eventual NT will be the most strange person in the planet 8O


The trouble is most people don't have any of the conditions being discussed here or could be diagnosed with anything.....everyone probably has traits of just about every disorder its when those traits are enough to interfere with functioning in life that a diagnoses is appropriate. So neurotypical is still a fairly large group, though it might depend how you define neurotypical as well.


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05 May 2013, 10:26 am

In the middle of a meditation cd (Chinese btw) anyway, as I was looking on different sites google brought up a direct link to here, which I thought was quite interesting considering how life brings all its uses to the fore when you truly need them. :lol: going back over old topics doesn't need to be hard work at all, but when I spotted this one I thought wow, designated interest from peeps all over wp since 2007, must be topics of immense interest for them.
For me however, it clears away some of the misunderstandings over uses of diagnostic memorabilia, or if not in some cases, rheumatoid kryptonite. hah.
I was looking up spd after this one, which is similar but not the same, seems to be a disability linked to virtually nothing, and can happen on its own, through a lot of chemical and self-induced stresses of daily life. im happy now ive discovered some meaning to my existence.



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05 May 2013, 10:36 am

It sounds like I probably have PDA. What part of this is supposed to be Sociopathic? I don't manipulate anyone. That's not listed as one of the symptoms. None of these symptoms mention negative intent, or even any lack of positive intent. This is very far separated from AsPD.



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05 May 2013, 10:57 am

What would maybe imply as sociopathic only appears if you carry depressive or narcissistic traits linked to angry genetic factors possibly connected to autism or some other underlying disability. Nld and Pda are likely to go hand in hand with certain biological factors but the more you try and explain some or more of these defects to unbeknown people the more likely they are to become aggressive or irritated by lack of their own understanding. of course its both an empathetic and apathetic way of breaking down someone s barriers to what life is currently holding them back from, but of course simply manipulating a person based on ill-fitting material or otherwise unknown data processes only serves to counteract the persons desire to hold meaningful relationships in the serious sense or holding down long-term commitments to an otherwise designated cause. Also, if I were to try and explain myself to a factor that is unbeknown to me I might get a citizens arrest or otherwise. I reckon there are too many to mention out there, including articles of ones own digestive appeal. I think that bringing it up whenever someone wants a pop out of life only dissolves the meaning out of the conversation and criticises ones ability to concentrate. also, ive learnt to stick up for my beliefs and not follow a gossip column based on fake evidence and colonised appeal.
if anyone else would like a recap on the many uses of sobriety you only have to ask. even if its a mixed response to the person following the question. that's why I hate twitter.



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05 May 2013, 11:07 am

MimiR wrote:
With my son, it was a three year battle from the age of one, culminating in my declaration that he simply would not eat or leave the room except to pee until he cleaned up his toys. (I had tried literally EVERY other strategy at this point, BTW.) He held out for SEVENTEEN HOURS. And at the end, it took him 20 minutes to clean the mess. That is the kind of escalation required to achieve victory in any area with him.


That sounds like me as a kid. In general if I really didn't want to do something no amount of punishment or reward was enough to make me do it. I refused to do things a lot, especially in school. I remember the teacher wanting me to read out loud and trying to pull "the whole class will sit here until you do it" manipulation until I gave in. I never gave in. I would have rather taken just about any punishment rather than be made to do something I don't want to do. No matter what the punishment was I still "won".



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05 May 2013, 1:12 pm

hanyo wrote:
In general if I really didn't want to do something no amount of punishment or reward was enough to make me do it. I refused to do things a lot

I can relate.
I refuse to do a lot of things.

This was something that happened in middle school during the PE when I was 11:
teacher: *to me* come here and play volleyball with your classmates!!
me: I won't
teacher: then I'll have to force you
me: you can't force me, that's illegal
teacher: I'll tell you for the last time. Come here and play volleyball
me: no
teacher: then you'll get an F!
me: that's fine
I got a lot of F in PE, so I wasn't that bad to get another one.
After a while the teacher stopped bothering me with that, and accepted the fact I didn't want to play volleyball.
My refusal to do certain things grew and grew as I grew up, and my mother started thinking I had ODD.
Then I was recently diagnosed with oppositional defiant disorder so I guess my mother was right after all. Ahw well.



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05 May 2013, 2:30 pm

This sounds very much like my sister....although her actual diagnoses are developmental delay/ADHD/Oppositional Defiant Disorder. She was also given a PDD misdiagnosis when she was very young and still has a lot of autistic-like behaviors (poor social skills, restricted interests)


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Mostly keeping a distance from ASD-related things (including WP).


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01 Nov 2013, 10:35 pm

Wow. People are being seriously harsh on this thread. I suppose it's like they are just tearing apart my own childhood as I fit many of the PDA symptoms, just not the social ability.

I actually think as my autistic symptoms have become easier to manage the PDA symptoms have become worse.

I always wondered why so many children were so easy to comply. I went to some great lengths to avoid following an order. For shame on people thinking it's the parents fault; I was the youngest of 3 other siblings and there was only a bit of defiant behaviour in the older two but I was passively avoidant so wasn't actually seen as a little brat.

So, PDA for me is very real and can co-exist in autism.

There are actually some similar symptoms. Watch this:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z_ZDdyMDCa8&list=UU6m8JcNEqX6e-2uBHE25BFw[/youtube]


And we're not little sociopaths. For me, I find it impossible to control my emotions. But I don't often have outbursts because of the anxiety of what people's reactions will be.

The social manipulation for me is almost covert, done without realising it. Now, I can pick up on it and feel guilty. So, I don't have a lack of sense of self. I suppose I am 27 and not 10.

The most serious of my symptoms is I don't like feeling controlled, this can be from an order, a suggestion or even being corrected. New information can feel me with so much anxiety. I can go to any length to avoid doing something, even thinking of violent ways to guarantee people just stop telling me to do things. Not violence to people, more to myself.

Sure, you can say it's made up or not very serious at all, but I'm actually at the point where I need immediate treatment for it. I'm not diagnosed but it answers all the symptoms I have that are not related to autism. And it's not O.D.D because I don't constantly say 'NO!' to everything or have any anti-social behaviour. I have the thoughts but that's just after the extreme anxiety hits. I still have a high regard for following rules and order and I try my best to mask enough symptoms so I don't make people feel uncomfortable. That's hardly O.D.D.

To have PDA there has to be a high level of anxiety after being given an instruction, or as I put it: having people control you.

And Hayno is right. It's about winning. Right now my sister wants to get me help for my mental health issues and I just want to take care of it on my own. It was my choice, not yours.

Here's a video on managing meltdowns:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QwtkzBoY01M&list=UU6m8JcNEqX6e-2uBHE25BFw[/youtube]

I like how they describe them more as panic attacks, because that's what they feel like.


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01 Nov 2013, 10:56 pm

Mike1 wrote:
It sounds like I probably have PDA. What part of this is supposed to be Sociopathic? I don't manipulate anyone. That's not listed as one of the symptoms. None of these symptoms mention negative intent, or even any lack of positive intent. This is very far separated from AsPD.

Social manipulation can occur when one wants to get their own way. For me, it's shown less in words but in actions.

It's very hard to come up with an example. If I know a person or just human behaviour in general, it's easy for me to know what to say so something turns out in my way. The words don't sound manipulative though. It's not patronizing anyone or even praising them.

The last time I did it was when I really wanted to take my camera into a venue so I went deliberately through a band member, but I also wanted to open up communication with him. In a way, I was setting a course in motion. I really wanted to meet and befriend this person and asking him if he could get me in to take photos of his band would just get me one step closer.
I would use opportunities like that to get my own way.
I suppose it's not a very strong description but like I said it's done so subtly I can barely notice I'm doing it until after it happens.

By the way, I may have taken photos but the meeting never took place.

There was one point where it seemed the whole photo pass thing didn't go through and I could have contacted this person to come out and sort it for me, but I didn't. I still think if I did I would have gotten another chance to talk to him. I always look for little hints like that and how to best take advantage of it.

My sister is also a super manipulator but she does this thing when she talks down to people, making them think they've got something wrong with them. I don't like that type. But I know enough about it to just ignore it.
I could probably put on a sad front to get people to do something for me. I don't like to show weakness though.

I hope people realise that I'm not proud of my behaviour and I'm constantly fighting against it but there are breif moments where I think it could offer an advantage.

I came up with this idea that I was a highly intelligent trained spy that puts on a minimal social act but is really studying people to see how I could use what I learn about their behaviour against them. All this because I cannot have a simple conversation with them. I don't really need anyone to tell me that I'm mental. I know.

There's the obvious avoidance part but there's also the demand part. The demand parts means to have control over most of what happens around you. I even want the weather to obey me. I literally pray for what weather I want. There's a lot of clever inventing to just get your own way, and sometimes that turns into social manipulation.

I also do see a lot of bands live (the photography thing) and I like to see patterns in things and will even come up with dates when bands should play near me. The level of control I want to have is laughable. But people that laugh at me make me anxious.


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