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Antrax
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19 Mar 2019, 4:51 pm

The_Walrus wrote:
I don't think you're far off, Crim.

Set at the right rates, a Universal Basic Income is functionally identical to a Negative Income Tax. Good explanation here: https://www.adamsmith.org/blog/welfare- ... same-thing

The idea, generally speaking, is that you'd set a threshold at which people would be no better or worse off. Maybe that's, I don't know, $20,000 a year. I can't explain the mathematics off the top of my head, but for every dollar less than a certain amount someone makes, you give them e.g. 50 cents. Above the "break-even threshold", you put up taxes.

Fnord wrote:
Along with Reparations, the Guaranteed Minimum Wage rears its ugly head whenever Socialists fear that they will not receive enough votes on Election Day.

Andrew Yang isn't remotely a socialist, and UBI is a completely different idea to the Minimum Wage. Indeed, many of the strongest advocates of a UBI are libertarian types who want to abolish the minimum wage. Milton Friedman supported UBI.


I hadn't though of UBI in relation to a negative income tax. I think the answer here is that negative income tax is a form of UBI, but the results of UBI will be wildly dependent on how the taxation to support it is done. Milton Friedman's Negative Income proposal was that 90% of the population pays to alleviate the suffering of 10% of the population.

Most "liberals/socialists" would advocate for increases in top marginal taxes and/or wealth taxes to fund such a proposal. This will result in the inflation described above as the majority of the basic income is just supplementing the income of the middle class, not actually going towards alleviating suffering at the bottom.

I need to read more about the particulars of a value added tax. I can't comment specifically on Yang's proposal. It's also possible this proposal exceeds my economics education/knowledge.


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19 Mar 2019, 6:38 pm

shlaifu wrote:
UBI is not an idea by the far, far left. Rather something for the not-all-the-way-left
UBI is also considered capitalism's last line of defense by the really far left. The thinking goes like this: what if 1 percent of mankind owned everything? then capitalism's over. there's nothing to achieve anymore. If you want to produce stuff, someone has to buy it, so you can charge them whatever price you want.
But if there's no customers, only ... well, basically slaves ... what then? - the 99% wouldn't be able to be innovative entrepreneurs - all they could do is offer their services to the 1%.
but in a fictional world of full automation, exactly this might happen. so what would capitalism need to do to survive? - pay people to consume, so they have money to keep the system going.

there's a book called BS jobs by a british (leftie) anthropologist, in which he writes about jobs that aren't actually doing anything- he did some polls, and about a third of people said of themselves that nothing would happen if they were to strike, and that their jobs contribute nothing to society or anything ... they're just there, getting paid.
So... imagine above scenario, the fully automated world in which 1% own everything, but they'd try to keep capitalism going for its innovativeness - would it make sense to create bullshit-jobs so people could keep the economic order afloat? my guess is yes. But my question is: why the BS jobs, and not just give people money? the smart ones would keep working, because they enjoy their work.
the rest could live and consume modestly but peacefully...

the real question is: at what point of automation and economic inequality would you begin with this?


That's one of the things I have thought for the longest time, the death of capitalism. It's simply a more complex version of kingdoms, it has a great start and middle but towards the end the ones who made it to the tippy top, which is a small fraction of the 1% by the way, will end up in supreme wealth and will control politics with their sway of money, and the rest of the population will either be their employees or modern day peasants.

I wish we could just sway the population to a new type of system, an actual equal wealth system. The nation owns all business and equally divides wealth, everyone gets paid the same thing per month, no matter what you do. No war on drugs, rather help people who have drug problems, free school, free college, free goods. We make things depending on demand, we allow people to choose what kind of work they wish to do, what kind of degree they prefer, and since a lot of people do not know exactly what they want to do, we could offer them a list showing jobs in demand as a suggestion. One nation, working together to improve life for all. I think the failure of socialist and communist countries in the past is not actually equally dividing wealth, no one should get paid more than another. I think people are curious enough to desire to do things rather than sit back and do nothing. Sure we may have lazy people at first, as we progress though and everyone has equal opportunity for great childhood, great schools and great encouraging communities, the urge to be lazy will dramatically fade out. With equal wealth, one doesn't have a reason to go into crime, for the most part anyway. Very few issues would exist, like people fighting over mates. Then we could also address our imports and exports making sure we stay a nation by a import/export balance. That would be like a dream world, but it is possible and will ultimately be where we need to get, otherwise we will always suffer. Greed is the biggest cause of suffering.

A system designed for equal wealth with the most amount of freedom offered to guide your own life along with still having democracy, the ability for the population to vote on things. I think if that kind of system were to be designed correctly, we would have the Utopian dream that has always been a dream. It's always been a possibility, we just have to make the system completely transparent, as in make sure there are none trying to get more than others. Maybe the money system wouldn't even be needed within the nation, only for outside of the nation, or equal trades. Money is a fabricated thing anyway, in a big way. If people work together, it is very easy for everyone to have good lives, especially with the technology we have developed.



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19 Mar 2019, 6:55 pm

Okay, so here's my suggestion for a guarantied minimum yearly income, based on the 2019 Poverty Guidelines for the 48 Contiguous States & the District of Columbia:

Persons in family/household v. Poverty guideline

1 Person: $12,490 ($1040.83/month)
2 Persons: $16,910 ($1409.17/month)
3 Persons: $21,330 ($1777.50/month)
4 Persons: $25,750 ($2145.83/month)
5 Persons: $30,170 ($2514.17/month)
6 Persons: $34,590 ($2882.50/month)
7 Persons: $39,010 ($3250.83/month)
8 Persons: $43,430 ($3619.17/month)

For families/households with more than 8 persons, add $4,420 (368.33/month) for each additional person.


So, determine who the Head of Household is, count up the number of people living in that household, and give that Head of Household the stated amount once per year (or 1/12th of it once per month). No food stamps, no free lunch subsidies, no transportation vouchers, no clothing allowances, no bonuses, and no deductions. A 3-person household gets $21,330 from the government once each year, tax-free, and that's it.

Any additional earnings from a real job will be taxed at 33+1/3 percent, with no deductions or deferments.

Spend it wisely.



kraftiekortie
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19 Mar 2019, 6:59 pm

Nope...I wouldn't like that one bit----especially the 33 1/3 tax should I get a job.

The viability of such an income depends upon the area. The southern United States outside major metropolitan areas have the least cost of living. The major cities on both coasts have the highest cost of living.

One cannot live on the "guaranteed mininum wage" in NYC, say. Maybe one can make it in a place like Knoxville, TN.



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19 Mar 2019, 7:44 pm

kraftiekortie wrote:
Nope...I wouldn't like that one bit----especially the 33 1/3 tax should I get a job.

The viability of such an income depends upon the area. The southern United States outside major metropolitan areas have the least cost of living. The major cities on both coasts have the highest cost of living.

One cannot live on the "guaranteed mininum wage" in NYC, say. Maybe one can make it in a place like Knoxville, TN.


One struggles even in the south, living in the country on $1040.83

food $60/w = $240 a month
Power $100/month average(in a trailer, living as cheap as possible)
internet $80/month
Trailer & land payment 350/month
My mandatory health insurance was $200 a month
--------------------------
Total = $770 = $70 left for....
Car bill, gas bill, car insurance, doctor bills, medication

I'm poor, I was making about that much towards the end of employment, I was barely scraping by though I am accustomed to living poor, so I was able to save money, a little anyway. Though I relied on a company vehicle, and health insurance was paid for by the city(city employee). For the most part I didn't go to doctors, I just neglected my health so I didn't have to loose that money. I did smoke marijuana though, $100 a month so I wasn't so depressed by my life that I wanted to kill myself. My power bill was also only that low because I'm accustomed to living poor, keeping my hot water heater off until an hour before a bath and 30 min after. Also by using a window unit ac and closing the rest of the house off with blankets so I only have to cool or heat one room. To run my house ac or heater would run the power bill up to $220-$240 a month. I was also very cheap, I didn't eat out and bought cheap food, my toilet paper was $1.00 per four pack. I was a family dollar shopper.

Basic income will not work in a capitalist country though. If you tax the rich to fund it they will leave, taking their wealth with them.



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19 Mar 2019, 7:47 pm

Okay, so what ideas do YOU have?

Anything?

Anyone?



kraftiekortie
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19 Mar 2019, 7:51 pm

There are ways one could get some sort of assistance in NYC if a family makes FOUR times the Federal Poverty Line income.



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19 Mar 2019, 8:20 pm

Fnord wrote:
Okay, so what ideas do YOU have?



A new system altogether, an equal wealth and equal opportunity type system with complete transparency to combat corruption and the majority of wealth falling into the hands of government officials. Outside of that, nothing, we will just keep pressing along until things get so bad the economy collapses and we take a dive into complete chaos because humanity cannot continue on a greed system, when we grow up and learn that we can all help each-other have great lives that is what we will do, until then we will keep trying systems out that will keep failing because no matter what, all systems so far end with the majority of wealth in the hands of a few. Capitalism isn't at the end yet but it is on its way as the wealth gap continues to grow all of the issues of poverty will continue to expand, with poverty comes a mass of issues.

I'm not foolish though, a system like this will not come anytime soon, if it ever comes. It's on the table, people are to involved in protecting the art of greed though.



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19 Mar 2019, 9:50 pm

So an unemployed, abled-bodied 18 year old can live in an apartment his parents pay for and collect free money?

That's what I did to get college grant money. :evil:

I made myself look poor on paper to get the money


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19 Mar 2019, 10:07 pm

LoveNotHate wrote:
So an unemployed, abled-bodied 18 year old can live in an apartment his parents pay for and collect free money?

That's what I did to get college grant money. :evil:

I made myself look poor on paper to get the money


The beauty of an equal wealth system is most people would be inspired to explore, learn and contribute, all having the opportunity for the best education possible and having the ability to grow up in good communities which inspire responsibility along with helping solve the single parent issue that seems to be getting worse.

Basically, If you had unlimited opportunity and grew up in a great neighborhood with great parents and great schools, would you really just want to sit around and do nothing, or would you follow your passion. Right now we live in a system that usually crushes peoples dreams rather than encourage them.

I know, you were probably referring to the universal welfare system, I don't think that will work in our system.



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19 Mar 2019, 10:33 pm

LoveNotHate wrote:
So an unemployed, abled-bodied 18 year old can live in an apartment his parents pay for and collect free money?

That's what I did to get college grant money. :evil:

I made myself look poor on paper to get the money


This is hateful. You lied for grant money & you're demonizing people who must be honest on paper to get housing?

The last time I got some grant money, I was HONEST. It's really pretty easy being honest. I highly recommend it.


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19 Mar 2019, 10:40 pm

cberg wrote:
LoveNotHate wrote:
So an unemployed, abled-bodied 18 year old can live in an apartment his parents pay for and collect free money?

That's what I did to get college grant money. :evil:

I made myself look poor on paper to get the money


This is hateful. You lied for grant money & you're demonizing people who must be honest on paper to get housing?

The last time I got some grant money, I was HONEST. It's really pretty easy being honest. I highly recommend it.

I never lied.

I lived in a 1 person household with no household income.

That's all that was required to qualify.

Seems like UBI is the same.


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19 Mar 2019, 10:42 pm

What makes you think money can be free? I thought you voted in order for thousands of impoverished foot soldiers to die in order to keep your freedom to spend.

I guess LoveNotHate is all about homelessness.


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20 Mar 2019, 3:39 am

LoveNotHate wrote:
So an unemployed, abled-bodied 18 year old can live in an apartment his parents pay for and collect free money?

That's what I did to get college grant money. :evil:

I made myself look poor on paper to get the money


This is part of why a UBI is considered better than a system where people who appear to be poor get extra money. If everyone is receiving a flat amount of income, then there's no system that you can cheat. Pretending to be poor on paper does nothing if you don't actually get higher welfare benefits by appearing poor. The only way you could get more money on top of the UBI is by working (and incidentally, the minimum wage could be reduced by an amount equal to the UBI), or maybe by appearing to have a disability. So the point you're trying to make is more of a criticism of current welfare systems or Friedman's negative income tax than it is of the UBI.

EDIT: I suppose college grant money could be acquired in the manner you describe, but once again, this isn't a criticism of the UBI, but a criticism of the college grant system.



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20 Mar 2019, 9:01 am

UBI?

Ok.

So where's my fair share?

I want it, and I want it NOW!

:| I figure that it's about $16,710/yr or $1,409.17/mo.



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20 Mar 2019, 11:53 am

sibilation wrote:
LoveNotHate wrote:
So an unemployed, abled-bodied 18 year old can live in an apartment his parents pay for and collect free money?

That's what I did to get college grant money. :evil:

I made myself look poor on paper to get the money


This is part of why a UBI is considered better than a system where people who appear to be poor get extra money. If everyone is receiving a flat amount of income, then there's no system that you can cheat. Pretending to be poor on paper does nothing if you don't actually get higher welfare benefits by appearing poor. The only way you could get more money on top of the UBI is by working (and incidentally, the minimum wage could be reduced by an amount equal to the UBI), or maybe by appearing to have a disability. So the point you're trying to make is more of a criticism of current welfare systems or Friedman's negative income tax than it is of the UBI.

EDIT: I suppose college grant money could be acquired in the manner you describe, but once again, this isn't a criticism of the UBI, but a criticism of the college grant system.

I thought UBI is only for poor people. So, everyone gets UBI? Even millionaires?


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