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ezbzbfcg2
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26 Mar 2019, 3:44 pm

Thank you for defining post-truth, OP.

To me, what you're describing sounds like argumentum ad populum. It's nothing new, really. I suppose you're saying a post-truth society is one where argumentum ad populum reigns supreme and you feel we're living in one now.



Fnord
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26 Mar 2019, 3:46 pm

Hsingai wrote:
... Pluto said it was ok to lie, not that it wasn't really lying because the children didn't know it was a falsehood.
PLATO, not Pluto!

:roll: What good is the truth if no one understands it?



Dear_one
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26 Mar 2019, 3:48 pm

Hsingai wrote:
I'm not say people were completely honest before the Post Truth world, I'm just saying that people knew that they were being dishonest. They didn't believe that Alternative facts where just as scientifically valid as true facts. Pluto said it was ok to lie, not that it wasn't really lying because the children didn't know it was a falsehood.


So, did Galileo or the Pope lie consciously? Were there no sincere errors in olden times?



Fnord
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26 Mar 2019, 4:02 pm

It is said that the first religion was founded when the first liar met the first fool.



Dear_one
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26 Mar 2019, 4:08 pm

Fnord wrote:
It is said that the first religion was founded when the first liar met the first fool.


I thought it was when the first average person took a spiritual metaphor literally.



Fnord
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26 Mar 2019, 4:14 pm

Dear_one wrote:
Fnord wrote:
It is said that the first religion was founded when the first liar met the first fool.
I thought it was when the first average person took a spiritual metaphor literally.
Ah! Here it is:
François-Marie 'Voltaire' Arouet wrote:
"Religion began when the first scoundrel met the first fool."



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26 Mar 2019, 4:41 pm

Hsingai wrote:
Prometheus18 wrote:
When people talk about the "post-truth" era we've been living in since 2016 or so, it always makes me smile. Did they seriously believe that Obama, Bush, Clinton, Blair, Sarkozy, Major and Thatcher were honest? :lol: :lol: :lol:

I consider the post-truth era to start with the Bush jr. Administration. As it was said by others, Bush wasn't lying because he had no concept that facts are different from fiction and to lie you have to know that what your saying isn't true.

Obama and Clinton may have used misinformation but they know that it was misinformation

AS far as I know Blair was part of the faith-based community. I don't know who Sarkozy, Major and Thatcher are.


I think any starting point here is as ridiculous as any other; as Fnord points out above, politicians have been lying to us from time immemorial - it's their function. I accept that it's become more pervasive with the emergence of TV and the internet, though.

I don't know what you mean by "faith-based community"; if you mean that Blair is a Christian (or pretends to be), then the same is true of almost all western politicians, but I don't see what it's got to do with what we're talking about.

Hsingai wrote:
Prometheus18 wrote:
"Post-truth" is an ideological term which functions as a catch-all for trends the speaker, whatever his political persuasions, happens to dislike.

Let me guess, you're a proud member of the faith based community?


By the definition suggested above, the answer is no. Again - not that it'd be relevant one way or another.

Quote:
You mean he doesn't believe that there is a Cult of Personality that surrounds Trump?


A cult of personality has to surround every major successful politician in an age of universal suffrage. The masses will go for appearance over substance every time.



Hsingai
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26 Mar 2019, 6:50 pm

Dear_one wrote:

So, did Galileo or the Pope lie consciously? Were there no sincere errors in olden times?

No.
But what lie did you think Galileo committed?

To lie is to convince someone into thinking something you know is untrue

https://www.japantimes.co.jp/opinion/20 ... od-enough/

I don't know why I keep trying to explain the difference between truth and falsehood to people that can't tell one from the other.

Like I said truth is objective reality, you have no concept of any reality other than consensus reality so assume that Objective Reality is the same thing.

Facts aren't just someone else's Alternative Facts, something your not able to acknowledge, ether because your to stupid or your trolling me.

Maybe this will explain it. It's not an Alternative fact because someone disagrees with it, It's an Alternative Fact because our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ doesn't believe it.


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Hsingai
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26 Mar 2019, 6:54 pm

ezbzbfcg2 wrote:
Thank you for defining post-truth, OP.

To me, what you're describing sounds like argumentum ad populum. It's nothing new, really. I suppose you're saying a post-truth society is one where argumentum ad populum reigns supreme and you feel we're living in one now.

It's not that argumentum ad populum reigns supreme its that people don't recognize there's any alternative to argumentum ad populum.


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Hsingai
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26 Mar 2019, 7:04 pm

Prometheus18 wrote:
I don't know what you mean by "faith-based community"; if you mean that Blair is a Christian (or pretends to be), then the same is true of almost all western politicians, but I don't see what it's got to do with what we're talking about.

Hsingai wrote:
A Bush administration aide said that guys like me were 'in what we call the reality-based community,' which he defined as people who 'believe that solutions emerge from your judicious study of discernible reality. ... And while you're studying that reality—judiciously, as you will—we'll act again, creating other new realities, which you can study too, and that's how things will sort out. We're history's actors...and you, all of you, will be left to just study what we do'

Faith-Based Community is what the Reality-based community refers to those that think like the Bush Administration


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Dear_one
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26 Mar 2019, 7:14 pm

Hsingai wrote:
Dear_one wrote:

So, did Galileo or the Pope lie consciously? Were there no sincere errors in olden times?

No.
But what lie did you think Galileo committed?

To lie is to convince someone into thinking something you know is untrue

https://www.japantimes.co.jp/opinion/20 ... od-enough/

I don't know why I keep trying to explain the difference between truth and falsehood to people that can't tell one from the other.

Like I said truth is objective reality, you have no concept of any reality other than consensus reality so assume that Objective Reality is the same thing.

Facts aren't just someone else's Alternative Facts, something your not able to acknowledge, ether because your to stupid or your trolling me.

Maybe this will explain it. It's not an Alternative fact because someone disagrees with it, It's an Alternative Fact because our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ doesn't believe it.


I have won world prizes by applying physics to engineering, without benefit of formal schooling, so I'm reasonably certain that I do have a grasp of objective reality.

However, I think that the Pope was sincere in maintaining the belief taught by all his predecessors, even if changing his mind would have shaken his own power. When I was young, the Universities were still saddled with tenured professors who could not believe in continental drift.



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26 Mar 2019, 7:28 pm

Hsingai, you've presented the same spurious "logic" that is used by wooists and flim-flam artists to "prove" the alleged validity of their assertions of alternate realities, psychic abilities, and otherkin (et cetera) -- you seem to rely more on "splitting hairs" than on any empirical evidence to support your claims. You also seem to have little to no understanding of the physical sciences (much less quantum science).

We who earn our STEM degrees have an advantage over those who don't -- we have a greater understanding of STEM subjects in general, and of the specific STEM subjects for which we have earned our degrees. Thus, it is obvious to us when someone is asserting fallacious claims, and offering only a convoluted salad of ill-chosen words and half-baked concepts in their vain attempts to support those claims.

You will need a lot more than that to convince the rest of us of the alleged validity of your claims.


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26 Mar 2019, 8:50 pm

Oh, the irony of life. We, as a gross generalization, who value truth, ethics, and equity, can't manage the social skills to be politicians. I'm sure there are exceptions (Lincoln comes to mind), but people that are elected to office are there because of their salesperson skills, not their ideas.

I don't think there is any way in the US to get to a truth society as long as there are lobbyists. Who would not be corrupt when you are paid off to vote one way or the other?



betty_ferret
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26 Mar 2019, 9:13 pm

Interesting topic. I find myself watching tons of youtube videos that are about "the truth" but they are all about "the lies" rather than the actual truth. It's a lot of focus on the negative, and I'm beginning to distance myself from that mentality as it does nothing for me. For some reason, most "truthers" seem to favor Jesus as The One True God of The Universe! And well...Jesus was just another bloke like you and I. In fact, maybe Jesus was autistic, and felt that if he gave up his life for everyone's sins then the real god would forgive him for his autism. (Sorry if this offends anyone...life is a funny thing to me. If it's not funny then it's terrifying and unbearable!)



Fnord
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27 Mar 2019, 8:34 am

Most "Truthers" do not rely on established facts and/or material evidence to back up their claims, but seek only to inspire doubt in truthful claims. Even when all available evidence supports only one logical conclusion, "Truthers" will seek to undermine the validity of those claims through assumptions, guesswork, and spurious "logic" rife with subjunctive clauses and regressive conclusions.

When a thesis against a known truth raises more questions than it answers, when one assumption leads to several more, when each piece of valid evidence and every factual statement is ignored or dismissed as trivial until the truthful argument collapses like an overplayed Jenga, then I know that the "Truthers" have been hard at work.

Now, if they would only apply as much effort into holding down real jobs, they might gain some credibility.



Hsingai
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27 Mar 2019, 7:31 pm

Dear_one wrote:
I have won world prizes by applying physics to engineering, without benefit of formal schooling, so I'm reasonably certain that I do have a grasp of objective reality.

You were unsure if Galilo or the Pope was the one that was wrong.


However, I think that the Pope was sincere in maintaining the belief taught by all his predecessors, even if changing his mind would have shaken his own power. When I was young, the Universities were still saddled with tenured professors who could not believe in continental drift.[/quote]
What do you believe it would take for his beliefs to be insincere?

I don't think the pope was sincere is questioning his beliefs therefore his beliefs are also insincere.


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