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Pepe
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22 May 2019, 6:41 pm

RushKing wrote:
Pepe wrote:
Quote:
"Hey, dipshits, when you move into the arena for violence, what do you think is going to happen."


Strange coming from Kyle. He's already in the arena of violence. He's okay with violence as long the state apparatus does it for him.


You know him.
I don't, granted.
But the message in the video was a good one, imo. <shrug>


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RushKing
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22 May 2019, 7:37 pm

Pepe wrote:
RushKing wrote:
Pepe wrote:
Quote:
"Hey, dipshits, when you move into the arena for violence, what do you think is going to happen."


Strange coming from Kyle. He's already in the arena of violence. He's okay with violence as long the state apparatus does it for him.


You know him.
I don't, granted.

Kyle is a plain social democrat and Noam Chomsky is an anarchist. Kyle's ideology, like every other state ideology requires a great deal of violence to meet its ends.

I have disagreements with Chomsky too, even though we are both anarchists.
Pepe wrote:
But the message in the video was a good one, imo. <shrug>

To each his own.

Every political action (in the right circumstances) has potential to generate retaliatory force. I wasn't satisfied with these arguments.



mr_bigmouth_502
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23 May 2019, 7:02 am

Wolfram87 wrote:
mr_bigmouth_502 wrote:
Wolfram87 wrote:
mr_bigmouth_502 wrote:
I'd be dead if it weren't for socialism.


Can't help but think you'd be dead as a direct result of Socialism under any number of regimes. And furthermore, strong Social Safety-Net =/= Socialism.

Signed

A Capitalist country frequently mistaken for a Socialist one.

Socialism =/= communism. Ever heard of democratic socialism? That's what Canada and the Scandinavian countries practice.


No, it's not. Democratic Socialism is not the same thing as Social Democracy, which is what we have in Scandinavia. More precisely, the Nordic Model.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_mo ... mic_system

Democratic socialism, social democracy, what's the f*****g difference?


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Wolfram87
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23 May 2019, 7:15 am

mr_bigmouth_502 wrote:
Democratic socialism, social democracy, what's the f*****g difference?


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_de ... ted_States

"The differences between the two is that social democrats support social democratic positions as practical reforms within and to capitalism and as an end in itself whereas democratic socialists ultimately want to go beyond social democratic reform and capitalism and advocate systemic transformation of the economy from capitalism to socialism."


TL;DR: Democratic Socialists are Socialists and have pure Socialism as their end-goal, and Social Democrats aren't and don't.


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mr_bigmouth_502
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23 May 2019, 7:19 am

Wolfram87 wrote:
mr_bigmouth_502 wrote:
Democratic socialism, social democracy, what's the f*****g difference?


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_de ... ted_States

"The differences between the two is that social democrats support social democratic positions as practical reforms within and to capitalism and as an end in itself whereas democratic socialists ultimately want to go beyond social democratic reform and capitalism and advocate systemic transformation of the economy from capitalism to socialism."


TL;DR: Democratic Socialists are Socialists and have pure Socialism as their end-goal, and Social Democrats aren't and don't.

I'm not sure which one I'd be then. I'd like to see the abolishment of capitalism, yet at the same time I recognize the alternative doesn't really work due to human nature.


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Mikah
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23 May 2019, 3:03 pm

mr_bigmouth_502 wrote:
I'm not sure which one I'd be then. I'd like to see the abolishment of capitalism, yet at the same time I recognize the alternative doesn't really work due to human nature.


To steal and butcher a phrase, capitalism is the worst system in the world...




... except for all the others.


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funeralxempire
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23 May 2019, 3:29 pm

RushKing wrote:
Wikipedia wrote:
Socialism is a range of economic and social systems characterised by social ownership of the means of production and workers' self-management, as well as the political theories and movements associated with them.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism

Daniel89 wrote:
Socialism has killed far more than Nazism and also does not believe in Human rights.

Seeing that socialism is often defined as worker ownership and control of the means of production; how many people did worker cooperatives kill?


The problem with the term socialism, is that it's such a broad family of ideologies that entirely voluntary, democratically ran small collectives and the USSR both are fair game for lumping together for real world examples, (and if you're a millennial leftist, or alt-right or the Fox News crowd somehow you end up including mixed economies like Canada and the Nordic countries, but only when it's convenient to the point you're making and never when it's not) and in terms of ideologies you somehow end up including many, far more radical ideologies.

Further, in the west typically when the 'capitalists' and 'socialists' are arguing they're either arguing over where exactly the balance in a mixed economy should be, which shouldn't be a black and white issue or they're bickering over who's imaginary system works better within their own mind, because examples of failures and successes of both exist. Further, when they argue economics as though capitalism and socialism represent a binary choice, they ignore that Keynesian economics, neo-mercantilism and other concepts inform most nations economic policies and have been embraced by both 'liberal' and 'conservative' political leaders over the past 100 years at various times.


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Pepe
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23 May 2019, 7:04 pm

RushKing wrote:
Pepe wrote:
RushKing wrote:
Pepe wrote:
Quote:
"Hey, dipshits, when you move into the arena for violence, what do you think is going to happen."


Strange coming from Kyle. He's already in the arena of violence. He's okay with violence as long the state apparatus does it for him.


You know him.
I don't, granted.

Kyle is a plain social democrat and Noam Chomsky is an anarchist. Kyle's ideology, like every other state ideology requires a great deal of violence to meet its ends.



But but but. 8O
He specifically says he is against violence, from memory. 8O


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23 May 2019, 7:09 pm

mr_bigmouth_502 wrote:
Wolfram87 wrote:
mr_bigmouth_502 wrote:
Wolfram87 wrote:
mr_bigmouth_502 wrote:
I'd be dead if it weren't for socialism.


Can't help but think you'd be dead as a direct result of Socialism under any number of regimes. And furthermore, strong Social Safety-Net =/= Socialism.

Signed

A Capitalist country frequently mistaken for a Socialist one.

Socialism =/= communism. Ever heard of democratic socialism? That's what Canada and the Scandinavian countries practice.


No, it's not. Democratic Socialism is not the same thing as Social Democracy, which is what we have in Scandinavia. More precisely, the Nordic Model.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_mo ... mic_system

Democratic socialism, social democracy, what's the f*****g difference?


Don't mess with the Wolfram.
He will eat you for breakfast. :mrgreen:

Mikah wrote:
mr_bigmouth_502 wrote:
I'm not sure which one I'd be then. I'd like to see the abolishment of capitalism, yet at the same time I recognize the alternative doesn't really work due to human nature.


To steal and butcher a phrase, capitalism is the worst system in the world...




... except for all the others.


Quote:
“Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the others.”

― Winston S. Churchill https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/267224 ... pt-for-all


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RushKing
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23 May 2019, 9:59 pm

Pepe wrote:
But but but. 8O
He specifically says he is against violence, from memory. 8O

Irrelevant... Governments are violent institutions.



Pepe
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25 May 2019, 3:09 am

RushKing wrote:
Pepe wrote:
But but but. 8O
He specifically says he is against violence, from memory. 8O

Irrelevant... Governments are violent institutions.


I liked how he admonished those joining Antifa.
That is relevant to me.
I think we are having two different conversations. <chuckle>

Pax. :wink:


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mr_bigmouth_502
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26 May 2019, 4:01 am

Mikah wrote:
mr_bigmouth_502 wrote:
I'm not sure which one I'd be then. I'd like to see the abolishment of capitalism, yet at the same time I recognize the alternative doesn't really work due to human nature.


To steal and butcher a phrase, capitalism is the worst system in the world...




... except for all the others.

You're thinking of democracy, though democracy and capitalism often go hand in hand. That said, I'm really not a fan of capitalism. I like the idea of people starting small, honest businesses, but not the big corporations that have so much power they're basically immune from the law.


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Mikah
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27 May 2019, 1:49 am

mr_bigmouth_502 wrote:
You're thinking of democracy, though democracy and capitalism often go hand in hand. That said, I'm really not a fan of capitalism. I like the idea of people starting small, honest businesses, but not the big corporations that have so much power they're basically immune from the law.


I'm aware of the original quote. I don't think it's true of democracy though, much better applied to capitalism from the point of view of a social conservative.


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And the end of all our exploring
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And know the place for the first time.


Pepe
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30 May 2019, 8:14 pm

In summary:
It seems to me that part of Antifa's manifesto is as follows: "Meet violence with violence."
Please correct me if I am wrong.

If so, I want nothing to do with this feral organisation and hope it fails here in Australia.
It is, after all, based on emotionalism which is the antithesis of my own personal manifesto. 8)


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30 May 2019, 8:51 pm

Pepe wrote:
In summary:
It seems to me that part of Antifa's manifesto is as follows: "Meet violence with violence."
Please correct me if I am wrong.

If so, I want nothing to do with this feral organisation and hope it fails here in Australia.
It is, after all, based on emotionalism which is the antithesis of my own personal manifesto. 8)

In summary:

Self defense is evil.

Please correct me if I am wrong.



RushKing
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30 May 2019, 8:53 pm

Citizens don't have a moral obligation to let fascists organize in their own communities.

Just like Pepe doesn't have a moral obligation to let me stay and harass him inside his own room.