Opinion on Dating Article
I read the article titled 9 Guidelines for Dating with Asperger's.
It's written by a woman and it seems more biased in favor of women. There is also some subtle remarks that seem to disparage males. Most who are single virgins are assumed to be misogynists. I don't deny some are like that, but I hear a lot of people attacking aspie men and most men in this fashion these days. It's probably not right! Somewhere it assumed an aspie man would try and make a woman cheat on her boyfriend and risk getting his ass kicked. Basically implying aspie men are adulterers and are "all" weak p*****s who don't look like men who can fend for themselves. Nice little remarks!
It's helpful article, but seems written mostly to help women I think, while insulting giving small pieces of advice to men and insulting them in subtle ways, which isn't good.
Is there an article written by a male on this site who has more to say on the ways that men should attract someone so he can develop a romantic relationship? Men on spectrum have it quite rough cause many can't even accomplish to first stage of garnering interest and showing interest without seeming like a creep. Men definitely need more help I think for romance.
Sadly, attractiveness is a big factor and everybody, male or female, has to work with what God gave them. One bright spot though is that you will probably become more attractive if you work out regularly. I know because when I started working out around age 30, I unexpectedly noticed that women became more flirtatious. I don't think the women are consciously aware of reacting that way.
Another concern is that every single person, male or female (except possibly asexuals seeking platonic relationships) wants sex. Your first real objective in approaching women is sex, and this is also the women's (especially if they've gone without for a while) although they will often not admit that to themselves. So you have to accept that humiliating fact, but at the same time keep your eye on the end goal of forming a relationship, which for you requires an understanding of the "whole person" which for an aspie is a huge challenge. But also bear in mind that in dating you are seeking intimate relationships. You aren't approaching women so you can widen your circle of friends — you are looking for a bed mate. The women want that too (although they may be not quite certain with just whom) or they wouldn't be in the game.
Returning to attractiveness. You should have realistic expectations. If you are less attractive, you should not waste your effort on women who are "out of your league". Sorry this is not intended as a misogynist remark, in fact I have the EXACT same advice for women. There are a lot of single women who quite frankly aren't very attractive, but they have the same desire for romance, if not a greater desire, than the "hot" women. And I can also tell you, a woman does not have to be pretty or have a great body to be an enjoyable sex partner. For me, having a sex partner with a mediocre (at best) body who nevertheless was one of the best lovers I ever had, was a huge revelation. After that my "standards" regarding body type became far less stringent. A good thing, because my wife's body was OK but not great by any means, and when I met her I did not consider that as a point against her. I apologize if it seems I am objectivising women, but a frank discussion of dating should not avoid that. Actually, to me the ideal would be a woman who considers herself plain but that you actually find attractive (i.e. "unconventionally attractive"). A lot of women seem to think that guys are only interested in women who look like models and so don't assume that guys are attracted. The downside of this is that such women may assume that any guy who approaches them intends to take advantage. Which leads to the concept of approach.
It took me a long time to get to the point of being able to methodically pursue a romantic prospect. After years, I developed a sense of which women might be sexually available and present myself as a potential partner. Besides not going "out of my league" I also never went after women who seemed to constantly function as part of a close group of girlfriends, or who seemed too independent (i.e. giving out the vibe they don't really "need" anybody). But mostly I would just be up front and friendly, clearly showing interest but making no effort to "smooth talk". When younger, I pretty much never made physical advances. I basically made myself available and if the girl/woman was truly interested, she would eventually make a move. Note that this might only happen every couple of years (limited as well as to when I was not actively in a relationship) but still I had had 6 sex partners by the time I was 30 which I would consider impressive by WP standards. I would be happy to give details about how I came to be intimate with all 6 but I don't expect anybody to ask any time soon. None of these were "one and done", the closest was a brief "fling" that took place over two separate weekends (and was mutually understood to not be serious). A lot of it was more willingness to take advantage of opportunity plus optimism than any particular approach.
One thing that does come to mind though is a sense of a "comfort zone". I think some sex partners accepted me because they felt comfortable getting naked with me. I tried to take the attitude that any sex we had would mutually enjoyable and non-threatening, which goes along with not making the first physical move.
OK well it may seem that I've talked more about sex than about emotions etc. but TBH you really need to establish the relationship first before building it on an emotional level. Of course many will strongly disagree with me on that point, but it's my experience.
OK one more piece of advice of a sexual nature, and it might better explain my perspective. Sex is not just "going all the way". Passionate tongue kissing is a sexual activity. If you go on a date, and end up where she is doing that with you, then just get into that and don't push beyond that point. That may be all she's comfortable doing at the time, but if she is getting into the tongue kissing and wants to see you again, then eventually she'll want to go farther. Another thing is that you might meet a woman who is open to forms of sexual gratification other than the traditional "main event" and if you get to the point where you are spending the night, getting each other off, but not actually "doing the nasty" you should be willing to remain at that level indefinitely. Such a woman may be playing the "long game". If things continue, and you don't eventually break up, then you may end up married (I hope!) and the whole matter will seem silly in retrospect.
Again, "comfort zone" is the key. She has sexual desires but needs to be in her comfort zone before she'll act on them with you. In fact, now that I think about it, this may be the number one dating fail nowadays. Women complain constantly about guys pushing to go farther on the first date or soon thereafter. If you can be different, it might get you what you (and she!) want.
Sorry this may seem like a Victorian novel but it really just scratches the surface!
I already body build and use steroids to get further enhancement (photoshop magazine look). I haven't used the results to gain sex yet as I still feel I come off as a creep approaching women. Workout at home as I own my own equipment so it's a hermit activity and hence haven't exposed my body often to women at gyms or anywhere in general.
I've approached a large number and it rarely proceeded to an exchanging of text numbers or any hanging out (coffee). A handful of times since I was 18 and now 28. And it would only last one hangout after which the women would cut contact. Women don't approach me wherever I go.
Your take on physical attraction isn't anything new to me. I've known this since I was a teenager. I don't fall easily for fairytales. That's why I pin so I can get as far ahead of the competition of other males, at least the average ones.
It's awesome you got 6 sex partners. The advice is a bit vague on the approaching part so I guess I'll just have to interpret it the best I can.
AngelRho
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Unfortunately I can't adequately answer your questions there.
But you did mention something about aspie men trying to get women to cheat on their boyfriends. I'm actually interested in reading at least that part of the article, so...I might be back later once I do. You might be right in terms of female/anti-male bias there. But the cheating thing sounds short-sighted.
My thoughts on cheating: First, it ain't a good thing. Have I cheated/encouraged someone to cheat? Yup. Have I "stolen" someone's gf? Well...yes and no, depending on how you look at it. Moved in on someone else's partner, yes. But there's really no such thing as "stealing" in this context, so no.
Both women and men have agency. I have no problem objectifying women. We're all objects--men, too. But we have wills of our own. The idea that someone can be "stolen" against their own will assumes one lacks agency. The same idea that someone can be "kept" also violates agency. So you have this problem that men and women must ASSUME that their partner will practice fidelity despite having absolutely zero assurances that they actually will. I can't ACTUALLY do anything about it if my wife insists on spending time with some other man. But being married, I have the law on my side and have some options designed to protect myself in the event of the unthinkable.
Unmarried, romantically involved men and women lack those options. Any man or woman who wishes to can change lovers like they change their underwear. There's no real security in such a relationship, and most certainly no permanence in it, either. Because a woman, even if she's "taken," is still free in many respects, and because any man is free to approach her, men and women are at liberty (whether you like it or not) to "steal" a partner. I use scare quotes because, remember, there's no such thing in reality as long as men and women have agency. If you have a romantic partner and confront her about seeing some other guy "friend," she has every right to, and likely will, remind you she has every right to see anyone she wants at any time and you can do nothing about it. You can't stop any other man from approaching her either. Oh, sure, there are some physical and psychological tactics you can employ to discourage or manipulate behavior. But that's borderline abusive. In today's culture, any man who puts his gf in the position of being forced to choose between a friend and her bf will likely lose her. You're better off with some tactic to put distance between a creeper and your gf by subtly going after him. If he's buying her presents, start buying HIM presents. Invite him to dinner and sit between him and your gf. Make physical contact with him any way you can. It gets really awkward, really fast, and he'll eventually get creeped out and move on.
But in the final analysis, if she's into him, you're toast, anyway. In that event, plan your exit strategy. People are free to pursue others whether those people are in relationships or not.
It seems like a dismal situation if you're a guy, but it's not. Just like you can't keep guys off your gf, it also means guys can't keep you off their gf's, either. So if you get to know a girl IAR and she seems interested in you--even if it's just friends--stay close. Relationships are never permanent. Find the Chinese in the relational armor and attack it. If she's been with the same guy for a while, she might be tired of him. They might have had a fight. Or a few fights. Maybe she just doesn't see a way out of it. Maybe you're her therapy and you've come along at exactly the right time. Make a move. Because encouraging someone to cheat is a good thing? No. Because getting her out of the relationship she's in might be the best thing you can do for her "as a friend."
Which brings me to something I've been studying up on as of late...
A few months ago an article came to my attention about how girls in the UK keep men waiting in the wings. In other words, half of women in relationships tend to maintain relationships with other men despite already being in committed relationships. If something goes wrong with the current relationship, they tend to jump right into another relationship with someone else they've known for a while or are already seeing regularly. I know in the United States there's a tendency for men and women to jump quickly from one relationship to another. In fact, a complaint I've heard right here on WP a few times is how aspies will keep distance from women IAR until they break up. So you approach a woman who just broke up with her bf after you've given her space this whole time and ask her out, and she says, "Oh, that's really sweet, but I just need to be by myself for a while." Then you go follow up a month later and she says, "Oh, I'm so flattered, but I just started seeing this guy..." I mean, you can't win like that.
And that's when reality sinks in, that she's been seeing guys all along. It's just the difference between them and you is that you stood in line, waited your turn, played the NiceGuy™, and still some jerk cut in front of you. And that's my point. It's not worth waiting around to form these relationships. You don't have to manipulate her into cheating, or even encourage cheating if you feel that's a problem. Just stay close and let them know if they break up they don't have to be alone. When he or she breaks up with their partner, make a move. Don't "give her space." Don't "give her time to heal." Don't worry about a "rebound relationship." Just go with the flow. She's yours within a week.
If you're too concerned with waiting your turn in line, you run the risk of others jumping ahead of you. You have to put yourself at the front of the line any way you can.
Final word here--I'm more about building a network of casual relationships from which romantic interest MIGHT happen. It inevitably does. Given the assumption that there's at least one potential partner out there for you, getting to know a large number of women over time vastly increases the chances you'll find that "one," and the odds of finding that "one" increase exponentially with each rejection. And that's if you do nothing to "game the system." With experience, you can manipulate that to a large degree to the extent that there need not necessarily be "just one." And that's with avoiding women who are IAR. Relationships can also cause a false sense of security, the sense of being immune to temptation or relational strife. So while I'd normally advise AGAINST pursuing people IAR, it does seem like this is "a thing." It could possibly be that such an approach shouldn't be ruled out. I know back in high school I was frequently frustrated that girls wouldn't go out with me, or they'd claim to be seeing someone, or they wanted "time alone" after a break up, and were seeing someone a week later. I never understood why women would dump me for other guys. I'm not sure how it happened, but in my experience this flipped on me in college to where I was spending more time with girls IAR and getting them alone. They'd seek me out, even. And I wasn't exactly a NiceGuy™ the way I handled those situations, either. And that's my final point--you can't really rule out anything.
That caught my eye too so I went and read it. Here's a link: https://wrongplanet.net/9-guidelines-dating-aspergers/
But in case you don't have time, she's not claiming aspie men try to get women to cheat on their boyfriends, but actually warns them to be wary of women who might hide already being involved with potentially dangerous men:
The only bit I can see rubbing guys the wrong way is this:
Which seems a bit harsh, but truth be told we've had our share of guys who behaved exactly like this here on the forum so I can't take issue with it as she's not saying we're all doing it.
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AngelRho
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There's a level of effort I'm prepared for...beyond that? Not worth it. Waiting in line...well, there's a CHANCE it might work if you're waiting for the right girl. But then again, there's a "right girl" for every situation. You can hope and pray waiting on ONE girl that she'll look out and see you keep getting shoved to the end of the line. MAYBE. I just don't put much faith in MAYBE.
"Waiting in line?"
Really?
When did the male-female ratio suddenly become ninety-nine to one?
Or are you only attracted to those women who are already in relationships?
Women slightly outnumber men, so no man should have to "Wait in Line", unless he wants to.
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AngelRho
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Joined: 4 Jan 2008
Age: 45
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Location: The Landmass between N.O. and Mobile
Really?
When did the male-female ratio suddenly become ninety-nine to one?
Or are you only attracted to those women who are already in relationships?
Women slightly outnumber men, so no man should have to "Wait in Line", unless he wants to.
Ok...I agree with you for the most part.
But since you put it THAT way...
It doesn't solve the problem of there being roughly equal numbers, even if there are more women. That means if you struggle at dating to begin with, you're going to have even MORE trouble finding someone who just happens to be single at the same time you are. It makes dating a matter of catching someone at just the right time, which in reality might be more difficult than you might expect.
Further, if you also factor in that women already have the next bf picked out before they even break up with the current one...again, how do you even go about getting on ANY girl's radar? Forget just one girl. What about any 10? Any 100, even?
I think shifting the mentality such that one COULD date 100 girls in a year even if that doesn't bear out in practice you at least take the chance that one girl MIGHT go out with you. If you look at it like a waiting list, then you do better getting on several lists and working your way up on as many as possible.
No, I'm not saying that someone should ONLY be attracted to someone else already IAR, or should necessarily make a move on someone IAR. I'm just saying it shouldn't be 100% ruled out. If it's IMPOSSIBLE to find anyone else who is single, think logically. What are your options? Stay single and wait? Or take advantage of relational impermanence? I dunno about you, but if those are my only options, I'm cutting in front.
The last remark I have is about why someone would ONLY date someone IAR. If there are a few available women out there who almost NEVER date or have a relationship, WHY is that? Is there a good reason why she stays single? I don't believe everyone deserves or is entitled to a turn at bat. If she cracray, forget it. Bad attitude? Low self-esteem? Negative? Complainer? Gossip? No way, bossman. And I'd be wary of women who date men like that or slip into a cycle of abusive relationships. If she dumped her bf, I'd enjoy knowing why. What you find is couples will split for any number of reasons that mostly amount to "not feeling it," "incompatible," became interested in someone else/reconnected with an old flame. Normal stuff, not psychotic or delusional stuff. Women who are IAR and seem happy are fascinating to me. You can watch that and imagine how such a relationship would work out with you. Healthy relationships don't necessarily last forever, either, but seeing how a girl is while she's in one is a good indication of what that would be like for another person.
Like I said before, it's not about ONLY pursuing women IAR. It's about keeping options open.
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