Neurotypical (NT) feedback requested!

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JustFoundHere
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27 May 2019, 6:18 pm

quite an extreme wrote:
JustFoundHere wrote:
Where are you from? What is the overall awareness regarding what's helpful for adults with HFA?

Stop this! She has an relationship to a guy on the spectrum and wants to understand the ways that he is.
And she is nice and honest enough to tell about herself and the way that most NT women feel towards guys who lack deep empathy:
Teach51 wrote:
I feel as though he cannot see me at all. The whole construct of his conversation is alien to me. ... I am beginning to fathom that it is not the aspies desire to win the debate or negate me but rather a deep respect and dedication to accuracy and for fact. These are not important to me at all in a conversation,( horrendous I know) I care about closeness, intimacy, sharing of information at an emotional level to break out of the encapsulation of self that separates human beings. That is my primary objective in social situations. The sharing of info is my secondary objective. When my guy ignores the emotional aspect of my words in favour of accuracy of content I feel annulled and silenced.


To clarify: I was asking about a general geographic region; as well as this region's awareness of HFA. I do not care about personal lives.



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27 May 2019, 6:57 pm

Teach51 wrote:
Now my with my lover there is more of a sense of freedom of expression ( obviously) and the conversation is more intimate and robust, but again he struggles to express anything emotional or comprehend my reactions, and we have to tell each other explicitly if we are angry or what's amusing( he has a short temper) and I feel as though he cannot see me at all. The whole construct of his conversation is alien to me. For example I was sick last week. When I was better he was visiting and asked me if I had had a good day. I replied that it had been especially good because I no longer had stomach ache, because I had been really sick. The "really sick" being added for dramatic effect to emphasise the contrast of how good I feel now.
This was received with a superior sort of dismissal and he replied: "I know you were sick, you told me. Him totally missing the embellishment for dramatic effect and me left feeling inferior and idiotic. He of course being an aspie remembers every detail told to him ( or so he says) and the allistics and NT's I speak to never seem to remember anything.

Not every Aspie/autist has such an exceptional memory; that's an ability some have and others do not. Anyhow, I doubt that your boyfriend meant to make you feel stupid, but apparently he mistook your emphasis on how sick you were as meaning that you thought he didn't remember.

Teach51 wrote:
Here on WP I have noticed that you engage each other in a different way. There is an abundance of relevant, accurate info, and whilst engaging in discourse you add facts and more relevant data and links and references and it is intimidating to a degree because quite honestly it makes me feel stupid. I am not a typical example because I have ADD, but I am assuming that NT's would not take kindly to interjections and corrections which to me seems obsessive and arrogant.

In general that's probably true, except for very intellectually-oriented NT's.

Teach51 wrote:
I am beginning to fathom that it is not the aspies desire to win the debate or negate me but rather a deep respect and dedication to accuracy and for fact.

Yep, thanks for noticing.

Teach51 wrote:
These are not important to me at all in a conversation,( horrendous I know) I care about closeness, intimacy, sharing of information at an emotional level to break out of the encapsulation of self that separates human beings. That is my primary objective in social situations. The sharing of info is my secondary objective.

I like emotional sharing too, but, for me, intellectual sharing usually comes first. It is hard for me to connect emotionally with someone when I am feeling disoriented. Having an intellectual conversation -- with the common primary aim of seeking the truth -- helps me feel oriented, and also helps in developing the common understandings that can then, later, form part of the basis of an emotional connection.

Teach51 wrote:
When my guy ignores the emotional aspect of my words in favour of accuracy of content I feel annulled and silenced.

I have the same experience on this forum, but to a lesser extent of course.Here I have to conform to your zone, I cannot compete, I can only be accepted for who I am. I cannot think so deeply nor retain vast amounts of data efficiently,
I am a creature of emotion. The sense is that if I throw out a thought to some aspies it is thrown back as defective.

I'm sorry to hear that it makes you feel like your thoughts are "defective." No one is omniscient. None of us has a complete grasp of the truth; we can only help each other, and accept each other's help, in grasping more of the truth.

Teach51 wrote:
This was where Mona's correct observation about me not being an NT irked me. I was grateful for this realisation.This deeply disturbs me with my aspie guy as the conversation always gets derailed and never flows harmoniously.

I would never expect a totally harmonious flow of conversation all the time with anyone. There are always new things to learn. To me, interpersonal harmony -- on a more than superficial level -- can only be something that grows slowly as I and another person deepen our mutual understandings of each other.

Teach51 wrote:
I am here to learn tools in order to connect with him and my aspie friends on middle ground. Does any of this make sense?

Have you looked into the communication methodology known as "Nonviolent Communication" (NVC)?

I'll post more of my thoughts later, perhaps in a few days from now, about NVC and other related communication methodologies.


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JustFoundHere
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27 May 2019, 11:25 pm

** Is there a moderator here on WrongPlanet?? **



quite an extreme
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28 May 2019, 12:20 am

JustFoundHere wrote:
To clarify: I was asking about a general geographic region; as well as this region's awareness of HFA. I do not care about personal lives.


Sorry, then I got you wrong. For me it sounded just a bit aggressive towards her because of her interest. I know that it's sometimes quite hard to express things in a way that people don't get wrong. I have to struggle myself with this problem too. (Especially in English :wink:)


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28 May 2019, 2:11 am

JustFoundHere wrote:
** Is there a moderator here on WrongPlanet?? **

Yes there are moderators here. Read the rules for each sub-forum, and then you can click the "Report" button for any post that offends you and is in violation of the rules.

Why do you ask? Is anything wrong?

Do you feel that the discussion between Teach51 and me about her relationship with her boyfriend is derailing your thread? If so, say so, and we can move it to a separate thread.


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28 May 2019, 5:45 am

JustFoundHere wrote:
quite an extreme wrote:
JustFoundHere wrote:
Where are you from? What is the overall awareness regarding what's helpful for adults with HFA?

Stop this! She has an relationship to a guy on the spectrum and wants to understand the ways that he is.
And she is nice and honest enough to tell about herself and the way that most NT women feel towards guys who lack deep empathy:
Teach51 wrote:
I feel as though he cannot see me at all. The whole construct of his conversation is alien to me. ... I am beginning to fathom that it is not the aspies desire to win the debate or negate me but rather a deep respect and dedication to accuracy and for fact. These are not important to me at all in a conversation,( horrendous I know) I care about closeness, intimacy, sharing of information at an emotional level to break out of the encapsulation of self that separates human beings. That is my primary objective in social situations. The sharing of info is my secondary objective. When my guy ignores the emotional aspect of my words in favour of accuracy of content I feel annulled and silenced.


To clarify: I was asking about a general geographic region; as well as this region's awareness of HFA. I do not care about personal lives.



I live in Israel. There is a very high awareness of HFA and virtually no stigma attached or negative response. Many aspies work here in Cyber Intel and Hi Tech innovation, we are in some respects a nerdy country though these nerds also serve in the IDF. Israel is a multi cultural and dynamic country and because of our history we have many people close to us who have been disabled in combat or terrorist attacks or psychologically damaged in the holocaust. We are a very small country so there is a sense of the whole country being one extended family, we all help each other out. I think because of the strong sense of collective responsibilty and our drive to find solutions rather than stick in the problem, great efforts are made to integrate HFA into society and the work force and emphasise the assets and skills rather than the disabilities. Military service is compulsory for all here. There is a special program for autistic soldiers with an adapted basic training to accomodate their special needs. They are closely supervised by social workers and psychologists, this a voluntary program obviously. Ultimately this keeps these guys and gals in the same social environment as their NT peers and they are channeled into areas that give them self esteem and confidence with skills that can be implemented in civilian life. Many go into military intelligence units or radio communications, cyber security etc.

I am teaching a student presently who receives a 100% disability benefit but has volunteered to do his army service. He sleeps at home every day and basically is learning how to adapt to a productive work environment with rigid discipline together with a great sensitivity to his needs.
HFA kids in mainstream schools have a personal assistant in the classroom, in addition to the teacher. They usually are not the king or queen of the class but the environment is on the whole one of acceptence of diversity. Our society truthfully works harder to improve life for the autistic community than the government. Most changes and support are brought about through voluntary organisations, our young people are very vigilant about promoting awareness for acceptance of the "diverse". There is also a marathon organised by guys who have finished their army service where they "big brother" kids on the spectrum and they train together and run the marathon as a team effort. They have enormous fun.
Commercial businesses such as coffee shops and suprmarkets employ HFA who are less intellectually competent, these guys are part of the dynamic of the community and are employed for years at the same job. I have personally witnessed one lady have a meltdown while working on the check-out till , but she's still there years later doing the same job. She is part of our extended family. I don't like talking about Israel here on WP because to say we are an unpopular country would be an understatement, and I don't discuss politics but I was asked where I live. I don't think political discussions contribute to building communication bridges but rather promote ill will and conflict. I hope I have answered the question regarding the awareness of HFA in my country.


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28 May 2019, 9:54 am

This is for Teacher51. I found that reading novels, especially ones that focus on relationships and emotions, to be very helpful in understanding how to communicate with others. Novelists let you get into someone's head. This is a skill I do not possess, I use rules to compensate. Your partner may be able to understand you better by reading novels by female authors.

Now, I am going to say something that will piss people off. There are polite ways to correct others. I have been working very hard to learn how to keep quiet, suggest a better word or an alternative argument. Improving social skills is a lifelong endeavor. Practicing in forums is a good place to start.

I am undiagnosed and have social cognition issues.


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JustFoundHere
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28 May 2019, 12:16 pm

Mona Pereth wrote:
JustFoundHere wrote:
** Is there a moderator here on WrongPlanet?? **

Yes there are moderators here. Read the rules for each sub-forum, and then you can click the "Report" button for any post that offends you and is in violation of the rules.

Why do you ask? Is anything wrong?

Do you feel that the discussion between Teach51 and me about her relationship with her boyfriend is derailing your thread? If so, say so, and we can move it to a separate thread.


The moderator question was pretty-much rhetorical!

Yes, I feel the original-purpose of this thread was derailed!



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28 May 2019, 1:19 pm

goatfish57 wrote:
This is for Teacher51. I found that reading novels, especially ones that focus on relationships and emotions, to be very helpful in understanding how to communicate with others. Novelists let you get into someone's head. This is a skill I do not possess, I use rules to compensate. Your partner may be able to understand you better by reading novels by female authors.

Now, I am going to say something that will piss people off. There are polite ways to correct others. I have been working very hard to learn how to keep quiet, suggest a better word or an alternative argument. Improving social skills is a lifelong endeavor. Practicing in forums is a good place to start.

I am undiagnosed and have social cognition issues.



Thank you!


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28 May 2019, 1:32 pm

Teach51 wrote:
JustFoundHere wrote:
quite an extreme wrote:
JustFoundHere wrote:
Where are you from? What is the overall awareness regarding what's helpful for adults with HFA?

Stop this! She has an relationship to a guy on the spectrum and wants to understand the ways that he is.
And she is nice and honest enough to tell about herself and the way that most NT women feel towards guys who lack deep empathy:
Teach51 wrote:
I feel as though he cannot see me at all. The whole construct of his conversation is alien to me. ... I am beginning to fathom that it is not the aspies desire to win the debate or negate me but rather a deep respect and dedication to accuracy and for fact. These are not important to me at all in a conversation,( horrendous I know) I care about closeness, intimacy, sharing of information at an emotional level to break out of the encapsulation of self that separates human beings. That is my primary objective in social situations. The sharing of info is my secondary objective. When my guy ignores the emotional aspect of my words in favour of accuracy of content I feel annulled and silenced.


To clarify: I was asking about a general geographic region; as well as this region's awareness of HFA. I do not care about personal lives.



I live in Israel. There is a very high awareness of HFA and virtually no stigma attached or negative response. Many aspies work here in Cyber Intel and Hi Tech innovation, we are in some respects a nerdy country though these nerds also serve in the IDF. Israel is a multi cultural and dynamic country and because of our history we have many people close to us who have been disabled in combat or terrorist attacks or psychologically damaged in the holocaust. We are a very small country so there is a sense of the whole country being one extended family, we all help each other out. I think because of the strong sense of collective responsibilty and our drive to find solutions rather than stick in the problem, great efforts are made to integrate HFA into society and the work force and emphasise the assets and skills rather than the disabilities. Military service is compulsory for all here. There is a special program for autistic soldiers with an adapted basic training to accomodate their special needs. They are closely supervised by social workers and psychologists, this a voluntary program obviously. Ultimately this keeps these guys and gals in the same social environment as their NT peers and they are channeled into areas that give them self esteem and confidence with skills that can be implemented in civilian life. Many go into military intelligence units or radio communications, cyber security etc.

I am teaching a student presently who receives a 100% disability benefit but has volunteered to do his army service. He sleeps at home every day and basically is learning how to adapt to a productive work environment with rigid discipline together with a great sensitivity to his needs.
HFA kids in mainstream schools have a personal assistant in the classroom, in addition to the teacher. They usually are not the king or queen of the class but the environment is on the whole one of acceptence of diversity. Our society truthfully works harder to improve life for the autistic community than the government. Most changes and support are brought about through voluntary organisations, our young people are very vigilant about promoting awareness for acceptance of the "diverse". There is also a marathon organised by guys who have finished their army service where they "big brother" kids on the spectrum and they train together and run the marathon as a team effort. They have enormous fun.
Commercial businesses such as coffee shops and suprmarkets employ HFA who are less intellectually competent, these guys are part of the dynamic of the community and are employed for years at the same job. I have personally witnessed one lady have a meltdown while working on the check-out till , but she's still there years later doing the same job. She is part of our extended family. I don't like talking about Israel here on WP because to say we are an unpopular country would be an understatement, and I don't discuss politics but I was asked where I live. I don't think political discussions contribute to building communication bridges but rather promote ill will and conflict. I hope I have answered the question regarding the awareness of HFA in my country.


Thank-you for your detailed response.

I'm not sure where to begin regarding my own experiences. In short, our Calif. State supported service programs are geared toward clients with the developmental disabilities more limiting than HFA. Over the past few years, our support programs have veerry slowly become aware of resources geared toward HFA. I won't go into all of "the bureaucratic red-tape!"

Hence, I finally persuaded my advisor to consider programs in the SF-Bay Area (one region that is "ahead of the curve" so to speak on HFA awareness).

This leads to a call on WP to investigate experiences of regions "ahead of the curve" on HFA awareness. Partial excerpt from my previous post in this thread:

{For starters, anybody familiar with HFA awareness/experiences in the SF Bay Area, the Portland OR, and Seattle Regions? Portland seems to have those quirky qualities which can be of HFA interest. Personally, I'm about three-hours drive from the SF Bay Area, and naturally, I've been investigating resources in the SF Region.

In regards to the more, or less formal resources, even West-Coast regions "ahead of the curve" so to speak on HFA awareness must look to AANE - the Asperger/Autism Network (in the Boston area) regarding best-practices on specific resources serving people with HFA. By signing-up for the AANE mailing-list, AANE will send info. on what seems like well thought-out support resources.}

[End excerpt]

Quite a few of us here on WP very interested in experiences of regions "ahead of the curve" on HFA awareness!



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28 May 2019, 4:07 pm

quite an extreme wrote:
Teach51 wrote:
What suddenly made this chat combative, perhaps confrontational and slightly antagonistic, at least from my point of view as a non-autistic with excellent social skills? Who would like to have a go at analysing what happened? This is a good experiment :idea:

Youl find kind of bitterness because many autistic people experienced lots of bullying, verbal problems or don't understand nonverbal things in speech and body language. Many autist dont get other people emotionally. That's why they may act a bit rude sometimes and often aren't really well liked for this. Because of this and because of their low self-esteem they often become a target of bullying. I'm a little bit between the worlds but for sure a lot stranger than most people.
Teach51 wrote:
I am here to learn tools in order to connect with him and my aspie friends on middle ground. Does any of this make sense?

I think you realized already a big part of the things but there is more. It depends on the people but many people who have a classic Asperger's syndrome aren't as emotional as common people. It's kind of an emotional shutdown. For this they often don't understand the emotions and feelings of other people and are more interested in facts then in transferring of emotions. I myself didn't even had a clue that empathy is a real thing and means more than just compassion. :mrgreen: For this don't expect him to realize you want him to hold you or to realize your feelings. Just get in touch to him as soon as you need affection and talk to him about this stuff. I think that you'll both win once you learn to understand each other a little better.


I had the same realization you did about empathy. I had to do research to deconstruct the meaning of it, and it illuminated a lot of issues I'd had. I was confused about tethering it to compassion too, because I am very compassionate towards suffering. I am not highly emotional reciprocal however and find this sort of "empathic exchange" she is talking about to be highly dulled in me although not absolutely impossible.

I very much appreciated her elaboration in terms of what she expects in social interaction and how she perceives a person with ASD's method of response. I had come to some of these realizations about how emotional bonding and not the exchange of information was the expectation in discourse, but it was interesting to read her side of it. It reminds me that I have wounded people emotionally without intending to by rejecting their emotional overtures.

I suppose she probably feels similarly to how I feel when I try to show/explain something that excites me to someone and am disappointed in their response. It causes negative feelings (which the other person typically doesn't realize) and estrangement. Resentment even.


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28 May 2019, 10:08 pm

EzraS wrote:
I find the whole "NT" clarification to be a rather subjective generalization in most cases.

One certainly doesn't have to have autism to not fit in, be socially inept, an outcast, a misfit, be bullied etc.


No...
But it helps. <boom tish> :jester: :mrgreen:

How would one quantify the percentage of NTs who are social aberrants?
And don't most young NTs defy mainstream NT social expectations at some stage?
Rebel without a clue stuff?

So Yeah.
In agreement. :wink:

BTW, would it be fair to say that most autists don't fit into NT society?
And why would an Autie want to be part of the nonsense anyway? :scratch:


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28 May 2019, 10:15 pm

JustFoundHere wrote:
Mona Pereth wrote:
JustFoundHere wrote:
** Is there a moderator here on WrongPlanet?? **

Yes there are moderators here. Read the rules for each sub-forum, and then you can click the "Report" button for any post that offends you and is in violation of the rules.

Why do you ask? Is anything wrong?

Do you feel that the discussion between Teach51 and me about her relationship with her boyfriend is derailing your thread? If so, say so, and we can move it to a separate thread.


The moderator question was pretty-much rhetorical!

Yes, I feel the original-purpose of this thread was derailed!


After 404 posts you should know that going off on a tangent is mandatory for those on the spectrum.
It's what we do.
It's our job, our vocation and purpose in life. 8)

Dude, get with the program. :mrgreen:


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I'm a thinker. Some think I'm a stinker. Pepe le Pew. ;)
Down with big business!...
I'm not here to change the world...There isn't a big enough soiled nappy bin... ;)
Autistic/scout motto: "Give me a better argument and I will listen..."
"Honesty is not a social duty, not a sacrifice for the sake of others, but the most profoundly selfish virtue man can practice: his refusal to sacrifice the reality of his own existence to the deluded consciousness of others."
Truth may be inconvenient but it is never politically incorrect...The Oracle of Truth has spoken...8) I'm a rationalist...Deal with it...:mrgreen:


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29 May 2019, 4:24 am

quite an extreme wrote:
Youl find kind of bitterness because many autistic people experienced lots of bullying, verbal problems or don't understand nonverbal things in speech and body language. Many autist dont get other people emotionally. That's why they may act a bit rude sometimes and often aren't really well liked for this. Because of this and because of their low self-esteem they often become a target of bullying. I'm a little bit between the worlds but for sure a lot stranger than most people.


Very well stated and worth repeating. Thank you


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29 May 2019, 2:57 pm

dyadiccounterpoint wrote:
I suppose she probably feels similarly to how I feel when I try to show/explain something that excites me to someone and am disappointed in their response. It causes negative feelings (which the other person typically doesn't realize) and estrangement. Resentment even.

Yes and no. Yes because you expect somebody to share your excitement or positive emotions. So she does. No because the emotions are not just about something but totally shared positive feelings about yourself and your opposite and the feelings about the whole world around you and this beside of all the things that you are talking about. Hard to describe without knowing it. Am I right with it Teach? If I'm talking about this it's like if a color blind who has a poor idea about what colors are tries to explain them. :?


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