Neurotypical (NT) feedback requested!

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Mona Pereth
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29 May 2019, 4:03 pm

Because the O.P. has complained about it being a derail, I would suggest moving the discussion about Teach51's relationship with her boyfriend to the following new thread I just now created for this purpose: Advice for allistic women on relating to autistic BF.


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29 May 2019, 4:43 pm

quite an extreme wrote:
dyadiccounterpoint wrote:
I suppose she probably feels similarly to how I feel when I try to show/explain something that excites me to someone and am disappointed in their response. It causes negative feelings (which the other person typically doesn't realize) and estrangement. Resentment even.

Yes and no. Yes because you expect somebody to share your excitement or positive emotions. So she does. No because the emotions are not just about something but totally shared positive feelings about yourself and your opposite and the feelings about the whole world around you and this beside of all the things that you are talking about. Hard to describe without knowing it. Am I right with it Teach? If I'm talking about this it's like if a color blind who has a poor idea about what colors are tries to explain them. :?



Yes you are right.
Also, the attempt to understand the emotions, the effort, the validation of what the other is trying to convey is the essence of intimacy.


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dyadiccounterpoint
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29 May 2019, 6:11 pm

Teach51 wrote:
quite an extreme wrote:
dyadiccounterpoint wrote:
I suppose she probably feels similarly to how I feel when I try to show/explain something that excites me to someone and am disappointed in their response. It causes negative feelings (which the other person typically doesn't realize) and estrangement. Resentment even.

Yes and no. Yes because you expect somebody to share your excitement or positive emotions. So she does. No because the emotions are not just about something but totally shared positive feelings about yourself and your opposite and the feelings about the whole world around you and this beside of all the things that you are talking about. Hard to describe without knowing it. Am I right with it Teach? If I'm talking about this it's like if a color blind who has a poor idea about what colors are tries to explain them. :?



Yes you are right.
Also, the attempt to understand the emotions, the effort, the validation of what the other is trying to convey is the essence of intimacy.


I can grasp the concept of it due to observation of others. I can sit with someone I like and have an enjoyable time, but my emotions engage better with interesting discourse. That's what gives me that feeling with someone, not so much what is being described here.

I don't mean to use an overly grandiose example, but it's like Plato's cave, except that most people are outside the cave and you are observing the shadows in a state of socioemotional ignorance. I'm probably far from the first person to make that comparison.

It hurts in a way. These problems are why I have sometimes vegetated at social events, especially with family (nothing but small talk and emotional group bonding). It's why I feel aromantic. It's why I get alienated serially.

I don't wish to sound bitter with my words. I have found this thread to be insightful and interesting.


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30 May 2019, 3:22 am

dyadiccounterpoint wrote:
Teach51 wrote:
quite an extreme wrote:
dyadiccounterpoint wrote:
I suppose she probably feels similarly to how I feel when I try to show/explain something that excites me to someone and am disappointed in their response. It causes negative feelings (which the other person typically doesn't realize) and estrangement. Resentment even.

Yes and no. Yes because you expect somebody to share your excitement or positive emotions. So she does. No because the emotions are not just about something but totally shared positive feelings about yourself and your opposite and the feelings about the whole world around you and this beside of all the things that you are talking about. Hard to describe without knowing it. Am I right with it Teach? If I'm talking about this it's like if a color blind who has a poor idea about what colors are tries to explain them. :?



Yes you are right.
Also, the attempt to understand the emotions, the effort, the validation of what the other is trying to convey is the essence of intimacy.


I can grasp the concept of it due to observation of others. I can sit with someone I like and have an enjoyable time, but my emotions engage better with interesting discourse. That's what gives me that feeling with someone, not so much what is being described here.

I don't mean to use an overly grandiose example, but it's like Plato's cave, except that most people are outside the cave and you are observing the shadows in a state of socioemotional ignorance. I'm probably far from the first person to make that comparison.

It hurts in a way. These problems are why I have sometimes vegetated at social events, especially with family (nothing but small talk and emotional group bonding). It's why I feel aromantic. It's why I get alienated serially.

I don't wish to sound bitter with my words. I have found this thread to be insightful and interesting.


I think that if we were to meet dyadic, and I would sincerely like that, and we would sit somewhere quiet and engage in conversation, just you sharing such an observation of how you process things differently would create a mutual bond and I would naturally wish to understand you more in depth.
Life is full of risks, for all of us, wearing our hearts on our sleeves is taking a leap of faith.
I am sorry that you feel alienated and not included at social and family events, that must be really tough. This is because you aren't able to engage in small talk easily?

How do your family respond in such situations?

Could you think of a time in the future where you are able to be yourself at these gatherings and yet sustain a sense of inclusion rather than isolation? Perhaps I am naive but it seems to me that if you could find the words to express your affection and love while at the same time making your friends and family aware that you respond differently. Just understanding that would weave fibres of connection with others.That your default is different not defective. Forgive me if I am off track. I am also assuming that others really care enough to help you out with this.


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dyadiccounterpoint
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30 May 2019, 8:08 am

It's not just small talk. It's this empathic connection we're talking about. It's just so much harder for me than it is for the average person. I want to be clear and say that I am a nice person and care about others. This is a distinct phenomenon from that.

I think my family doesn't like me or they think I'm either excessively eccentric or psychologically disturbed. I only have extended family left surviving and one grandparent, so I can't give you opinions of parents or anything. My reactions to these gatherings creates distance. My great aunt is a good example. She used to be very space invasive and would asking probing emotional questions when I was a bit younger. She was just trying to forge a relationship, which I understand now, but I pushed her away and felt offended at the time. I just don't feel a great sense of attachment to family and they lose their attachment towards me as well.

I would respond better to 1 on 1 dialogue in which the substance of conversation drives the connection. A family member would need to listen to what I am describing about my experiences and make an effort to comprehend them. They typically invalidate my experiences or fail to understand them and instead make these empathic gestures. This really frustrates me.

I wish I could explain better why I am this way to them. I wish they understood that I'm vegetating because I'm having a hard time, not because I hate everyone.


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30 May 2019, 9:23 am

I’m NT and have used this site a lot in the past to help negotiate a friendship with an aspie man. . . . . . On the whole I have found it to be very positive. Occasionally I have been blasted when trying to explain how some situations have made me feel. . . . . .i think understandably a lot of aspie folk feel that I am being critical. On the whole these have been negotiated well, and often people have reached out to me in a pm if they feel other contributors have been too harsh to make sure I’m ok. . . . . . I don’t think I would still have the friendship that I value despite all the difficulties along the way, without the help of this site.



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30 May 2019, 11:59 am

dyadiccounterpoint wrote:
It's not just small talk. It's this empathic connection we're talking about. It's just so much harder for me than it is for the average person. I want to be clear and say that I am a nice person and care about others. This is a distinct phenomenon from that.

Please don't feel wrong just because we are different. I wished I had a woman like you on my side because it would make the things for me much more easier and the life really great. The advantage of people like us is the ability of the bright out of the box thinking and to enjoy things the way that you described to have a lot of unusal interest and many many more. Aspies are great and we would get along phantastic together. :wink: :mrgreen: But it's always a problem with the NTs for us if they feel emotional misunderstood because we are unable to sense and share their emotions. :(

Nevertheless has the emotional way of NTs some nice and beautiful sides too and to get them emotionally makes the life more colorful and phantastic. But we are able to learn and to improve with this a bit even that it is not as easy for most of us. I already did improve a little bit and there were already some rare moments that I felt empathy. Thats why I know a little bit about this. The bad thing is that I still don't know how to control this. :?

I think a nice partner who you totally trust would be a great help for improving with this. For this Ann and Teach don't give up all your hopes please. Instead of this talk to your partners about the problem. You and your partners have to learn about how the other is and to learn to totally trust each other first. Your partner has to learn not to suppress emotions and to make the positive way his mind is a positive feeling. And he has to learn to imagine to be in you position and trying to realize the way you may feel. After a lot of training he may improve even if it's not as easy and there is no warranty that he ever will. But even if not you'll become much closer to each other and you have nothing to loose once you are trying this. :wink:
(Why does this remind me to this song https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cTLTG4FTNBQ ? :wink: )


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31 May 2019, 2:38 pm

quite an extreme wrote:
dyadiccounterpoint wrote:
It's not just small talk. It's this empathic connection we're talking about. It's just so much harder for me than it is for the average person. I want to be clear and say that I am a nice person and care about others. This is a distinct phenomenon from that.

Please don't feel wrong just because we are different. I wished I had a woman like you on my side because it would make the things for me much more easier and the life really great. The advantage of people like us is the ability of the bright out of the box thinking and to enjoy things the way that you described to have a lot of unusal interest and many many more. Aspies are great and we would get along phantastic together. :wink: :mrgreen: But it's always a problem with the NTs for us if they feel emotional misunderstood because we are unable to sense and share their emotions. :(

Nevertheless has the emotional way of NTs some nice and beautiful sides too and to get them emotionally makes the life more colorful and phantastic. But we are able to learn and to improve with this a bit even that it is not as easy for most of us. I already did improve a little bit and there were already some rare moments that I felt empathy. Thats why I know a little bit about this. The bad thing is that I still don't know how to control this. :?

I think a nice partner who you totally trust would be a great help for improving with this. For this Ann and Teach don't give up all your hopes please. Instead of this talk to your partners about the problem. You and your partners have to learn about how the other is and to learn to totally trust each other first. Your partner has to learn not to suppress emotions and to make the positive way his mind is a positive feeling. And he has to learn to imagine to be in you position and trying to realize the way you may feel. After a lot of training he may improve even if it's not as easy and there is no warranty that he ever will. But even if not you'll become much closer to each other and you have nothing to loose once you are trying this. :wink:
(Why does this remind me to this song https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cTLTG4FTNBQ ? :wink: )


Quite an extreme you are very sweet and sensitive. I believe that when we meet good people we make an effort to understand them. Friends with Aspergers are easier for me to communicate with than my lover because there is less of an emotional expectation. The same thing happens with NT men frequently. They are less able to understand women's emotional needs because they are wired differently. Aspie men tend to have an even more masculine black and white, logical way of thinking which leaves them baffled when communicating with NT women. NT women often need to let off steam without actually needing to make a specific point as a clear objective. They will jump from topic to topic and it is cathartic for them to have someone listening. Men aren't required to provide a solution, the listening is the actual solution. Most men find this difficult to understand because they will usually talk about problems to friends if seeking a solution, this is my belief at least. Communicating what we need from each other is an essential part of living together harmoniously.

If we are motivated to know what a person needs then we make an effort. I teach Cross Cultural Communications as part of a Business English course. Engineers and programmers go to the Far East to teach their counterparts in China, Japan and South Korea how to implement software or use new drones and technology that we develop here . In my country there are no social barriers, none. I don't know another country like us. In Japan eye contact is considered confrontational. Israelis who don't know each other will hug and joke together in the first moments of meeting.
Do they fare well in Japan, yes. They adapt because they know what they have to gain. They will read and learn and try and understand the workings of the Eastern culture so that they will succeed in their mission.
We all make the effort to understand people if we can make a sale, or have some personal gain.
If people are important to us just because they are human beings then we can break the barriers.
Outside the business context if we meet people who antagonise us or patronise us the natural response is to steer away from them. Yet with Aspies it is not so simple because their intention is not to antagonise or patronise. Their mode of expression tricks us into thinking this sometimes because NT arrogant narcissists express themselves similarly. If the environment where we meet necessitates a prolonged collaboration because of work or family connection then the odds are that we will cultivate endearing and affectionate feelings that can grow into full blown close relationships, and move beyond the first impressions that may have been negative. Not all people care enough about others to try so hard, but they aren't the ones I wish to share my life with anyway. Good people attract good people whether NT or ASD IMO.


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31 May 2019, 4:09 pm

Teacher 51, listening versus solving, yes you nailed it.

You also mentioned another topic about communication. I can give a compliment, but my voice, my face, my body language carry more weight than my words. Many of us get the nonverbal cues all wrong. This is a social cognition deficit. I have spent many years trying to improve. Some good friends see past it. But most people read the cues and react in ways that are quite disconcerting. Teaching my face and body how to communicate takes much practice.


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Last edited by goatfish57 on 31 May 2019, 4:41 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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31 May 2019, 4:16 pm

Teach51 wrote:
quite an extreme wrote:
dyadiccounterpoint wrote:
It's not just small talk. It's this empathic connection we're talking about. It's just so much harder for me than it is for the average person. I want to be clear and say that I am a nice person and care about others. This is a distinct phenomenon from that.

Please don't feel wrong just because we are different. I wished I had a woman like you on my side because it would make the things for me much more easier and the life really great. The advantage of people like us is the ability of the bright out of the box thinking and to enjoy things the way that you described to have a lot of unusal interest and many many more. Aspies are great and we would get along phantastic together. :wink: :mrgreen: But it's always a problem with the NTs for us if they feel emotional misunderstood because we are unable to sense and share their emotions. :(

Nevertheless has the emotional way of NTs some nice and beautiful sides too and to get them emotionally makes the life more colorful and phantastic. But we are able to learn and to improve with this a bit even that it is not as easy for most of us. I already did improve a little bit and there were already some rare moments that I felt empathy. Thats why I know a little bit about this. The bad thing is that I still don't know how to control this. :?

I think a nice partner who you totally trust would be a great help for improving with this. For this Ann and Teach don't give up all your hopes please. Instead of this talk to your partners about the problem. You and your partners have to learn about how the other is and to learn to totally trust each other first. Your partner has to learn not to suppress emotions and to make the positive way his mind is a positive feeling. And he has to learn to imagine to be in you position and trying to realize the way you may feel. After a lot of training he may improve even if it's not as easy and there is no warranty that he ever will. But even if not you'll become much closer to each other and you have nothing to loose once you are trying this. :wink:
(Why does this remind me to this song https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cTLTG4FTNBQ ? :wink: )


Quite an extreme you are very sweet and sensitive. I believe that when we meet good people we make an effort to understand them. Friends with Aspergers are easier for me to communicate with than my lover because there is less of an emotional expectation. The same thing happens with NT men frequently. They are less able to understand women's emotional needs because they are wired differently. Aspie men tend to have an even more masculine black and white, logical way of thinking which leaves them baffled when communicating with NT women. NT women often need to let off steam without actually needing to make a specific point as a clear objective. They will jump from topic to topic and it is cathartic for them to have someone listening. Men aren't required to provide a solution, the listening is the actual solution. Most men find this difficult to understand because they will usually talk about problems to friends if seeking a solution, this is my belief at least. Communicating what we need from each other is an essential part of living together harmoniously.

If we are motivated to know what a person needs then we make an effort. I teach Cross Cultural Communications as part of a Business English course. Engineers and programmers go to the Far East to teach their counterparts in China, Japan and South Korea how to implement software or use new drones and technology that we develop here . In my country there are no social barriers, none. I don't know another country like us. In Japan eye contact is considered confrontational. Israelis who don't know each other will hug and joke together in the first moments of meeting.
Do they fare well in Japan, yes. They adapt because they know what they have to gain. They will read and learn and try and understand the workings of the Eastern culture so that they will succeed in their mission.
We all make the effort to understand people if we can make a sale, or have some personal gain.
If people are important to us just because they are human beings then we can break the barriers.
Outside the business context if we meet people who antagonise us or patronise us the natural response is to steer away from them. Yet with Aspies it is not so simple because their intention is not to antagonise or patronise. Their mode of expression tricks us into thinking this sometimes because NT arrogant narcissists express themselves similarly. If the environment where we meet necessitates a prolonged collaboration because of work or family connection then the odds are that we will cultivate endearing and affectionate feelings that can grow into full blown close relationships, and move beyond the first impressions that may have been negative. Not all people care enough about others to try so hard, but they aren't the ones I wish to share my life with anyway. Good people attract good people whether NT or ASD IMO.


From the original poster (OP): Thank-you for acknowledging the original purpose of this thread. Thank-you again for your detailed experiences on NT/AS relations in Israel.

I'm awaiting WP posts on detailed experiences from here in the United States; that is the U.S. regions that are "ahead of the curve" so to speak on HFA awareness.

The more formal resources seem to be the best-bet; AANE - the Asperger/Autism Network (in the Boston Area) http://www.aane.org seems to have well thought-out support resources. From AANE's website, does AANE seem to have good-grasps on support resources?

Here on the U.S. West Coast where I live, support resources are spotty; that is experiences, and support are informal. From what I sense, even U.S. West Coast Regions "ahead of the curve" on HFA awareness (SF Bay Area, Portland OR, Seattle WA) might benefit if agencies such as AANE advise on best practices.

What is you advice?



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31 May 2019, 10:38 pm

goatfish57 wrote:
Teacher 51, listening versus solving, yes you nailed it.

You also mentioned another topic about communication. I can give a compliment, but my voice, my face, my body language carry more weight than my words. Many of us get the nonverbal cues all wrong. This is a social cognition deficit. I have spent many years trying to improve. Some good friends see past it. But most people read the cues and react in ways that are quite disconcerting. Teaching my face and body how to communicate takes much practice.


Goatfish57 Have you tried asking a question to clarify if you have understood non-verbal communication correctly? My aspie friend asks me "why are you smiling"? Or "are you angry?" and that opens up the opportunity to elaborate. I am not sure that you need to learn facial expressions and body language that does not come naturally. My friend does not smile always but when he tries to conform to what he presumes is appropriate when we are together it exhausts him.
I also find that if I am upset he can process my words more efficiently if reading them from a text message rather than frontal conversation. If I get upset when we are together he gets terribly stressed and I can see the effort he is making to maintain his equilibrium and avoid a full-blown meltdown.

If I can control my anger or expressing my feelings until he goes home and then text him, he will read it several times and ultimately try and modify whatever part of his behaviour has upset me if he understands the logic of it.
I understand how bewildering not understanding non-verbal cues must be for aspies, it must be like being dropped in the centre of Beijing and not understanding a word of Chinese. Only here the literal meaning of the words are comprehended but the encoded emotional subtext is a foreign language.
What it feels like to be an aspie in a group of NT alpha males each trying to stand firm or "butting heads" in a work or social situation I can't imagine. I think this explains the high level of frustration expressed on WP among the men.


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01 Jun 2019, 5:27 am

Teacher51, Thank you for the advice. You are a nice person and your friend is lucky to have found you.

Some of us do not have the luxury of support. We are thrust into the deep end and expected to swim. As a result, we labor like Sisyphus until we are able to get away. Avoidance becomes our escape, those around us think they know best and force us to engage with unpleasant people.

Survival in this world means, to me, playing a role that others find acceptable. When necessary, I am ruthless, disciplined and strategic. I can hit hard and win. I am modest and humble about my accomplishments, which are many. People easily underestimate me and I use this quite effectively.

I like your example of Beijing. Actually, I have been dropped in many foreign places and enjoyed them immensely. As an outsider, people just assume you are ignorant of their ways and give you extra consideration. And when they say something nasty, you cannot understand it.

When it comes to love, romance, emotions and relationships, I will defer to your better judgement. All my strength, energy and intellect are used for survival. Relationships are a low priority for me, a luxury that I relish from time to time. Until they blow up in my face.

All that said, you are doing good work and should be proud. I am undiagnosed with a social cognition deficit.


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01 Jun 2019, 6:06 am

goatfish57 wrote:
Teacher51, Thank you for the advice. You are a nice person and your friend is lucky to have found you.

Some of us do not have the luxury of support. We are thrust into the deep end and expected to swim. As a result, we labor like Sisyphus until we are able to get away. Avoidance becomes our escape, those around us think they know best and force us to engage with unpleasant people.

Survival in this world means, to me, playing a role that others find acceptable. When necessary, I am ruthless, disciplined and strategic. I can hit hard and win. I am modest and humble about my accomplishments, which are many. People easily underestimate me and I use this quite effectively.

I like your example of Beijing. Actually, I have been dropped in many foreign places and enjoyed them immensely. As an outsider, people just assume you are ignorant of their ways and give you extra consideration. And when they say something nasty, you cannot understand it.

When it comes to love, romance, emotions and relationships, I will defer to your better judgement. All my strength, energy and intellect are used for survival. Relationships are a low priority for me, a luxury that I relish from time to time. Until they blow up in my face.

All that said, you are doing good work and should be proud. I am undiagnosed with a social cognition deficit.


I will read up on social cognition deficit :D


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01 Jun 2019, 7:15 am

My favorite scientist on this subject is Uta Frith.

https://sites.google.com/site/utafrith/Home

Shalom

Paul


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01 Jun 2019, 1:47 pm

goatfish57 wrote:
My favorite scientist on this subject is Uta Frith.

https://sites.google.com/site/utafrith/Home

Shalom

Paul



Thanks Paul.


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