Autistic-friendly social skills vs. blending in with NT's

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cyberdad
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05 Sep 2020, 10:34 pm

I think there's a range of thoughts on what works best for online forums

One thought is to have a safe space for newbies who only want to interact with other NDs. Almost all of WP is relatively safe for NDs.

The only area where NTs frequent regularly is the parent forum. I have observed NT parents also pop into the news forum. However with the exception of me I can't recall any stayers (DW_a mom might be an NT but I could be wrong).

NTs who are researchers occasionally pop into other forums seeking guinea pigs *cough* I mean participants for research.

I also see NTs venture into the love and dating section of WP asking questions about their significant other who is on the spectrum.



CarlM
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06 Sep 2020, 9:35 pm

Archmage Arcane wrote:
We're going to have some in-depth discussions on the topic of autistic-friendly social skills beginning next month.

-Assertiveness (without being aggressive).
-Active listening.
-Giving and receiving constructive criticism.
-Conflict resolution.
-Being alert to possible differences in perception and needs.

These skills assume an autistic-friendly space.


After studying this article Active Listening and Autism I gave some thought to my own experiences. I will often find after listening to the same talk as an allistic I have not absorbed nearly as much as they have. This article confirms that this is an autistic trait and suggests work-arounds to make the speech easier to listen too. Even when listening to an allistic you could request they make things clearer with these ideas.

I don't find I have much problem receiving criticism. I have more problem giving criticism out of fear I might come off as too blunt.

My aspie daughter had a college course in empathy where she learned about non-violent communication. She tried to teach it to me by linking me to video on the subject. I can't say I've mastered it, but it sounded reasonable to me. Here is the originator of the idea discussing it:



Being alert to possible differences in perception and needs is the primary skill needed for autistic-friendly social skills. I think we've seen too many people who don't modify their communication approach even after it should be obvious it's not working well.

BTW, I'm also attending Mona's discussion groups.


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cyberdad
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06 Sep 2020, 11:13 pm

Thanks for the link CarlM



Mona Pereth
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19 Nov 2020, 7:07 am

A possibly useful article, for those of us who have difficulty responding gracefully to criticism: 6 Ways to Not Take Things Personally: Walk the line between overreacting and underreacting, by Ellen Hendriksen, Ph.D., Psychology Today, Nov 17, 2020.

On the other hand: how to win an argument ... NOT! A list of aggressive behaviors, as distinct from being assertive. Alas it's how all too many people try to win arguments.


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19 Nov 2020, 6:17 pm

My NT mum actually learnt a social skill off me.

To be fair I read it on a site which was like a magazine.

She learnt about frenemies. People who seem like friends but are really enemies.

She's lovely, NT and an ambivert. This combination of traits means she always tries to have everyone in her life and to help them out, putting her own needs aside etc. I told her she doesn't have to do this with toxic ppl who drag her down and make her feel bad.

It's years later and she still uses it and thanks me for it.

It's easy for me to use this trait cos my version of autism (I get a sense on this site not everyone's autism works like this) doesn't really need people/friends and simply benefits as a nice extra from having additional people. But it's interesting to see that it helps someone like her out as well.


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Clueless2017
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19 Nov 2020, 6:41 pm

Mona Pereth wrote:
From what I've heard, a lot of "social skills training" involves learning to act like NT's. For example, imitating NT eye contact rhythms, NT body language, and NT-style chit chat.

Many (though not all) "high functioning" autistic people do manage to learn to do these things, but find them utterly exhausting, draining precious energy away from doing anything productive. Others are either unable to do these things or unwilling to accept the personal cost of doing them, and hence face big social and economic disadvantages in mainstream society.

I'm a big believer in the aim of creating autistic-friendly environments (e.g. Autistic-friendly workplaces and autistic-friendly social spaces) in which we're NOT obligated to wear ourselves out by trying to act like NT's.

Yet, even in an autistic-friendly space, we still do need to have some social skills in order to get along with other autistic people and with autistic friendly NT's. But the social skills needed in an autistic-friendly space are not the same set of "social skills" that are needed in order to blend in with NT's. The two social skill sets do overlap, but are far from identical.

In a truly autistic-friendly space, it should not be necessary to imitate NT eye contact rhythms or NT body language. It should be understood and accepted that different people have different natural body language, and that you can't know what it means until you get to know the person well.

Also in an autistic-friendly space, it should not be necessary to be able to pick up on subtle hints. There should, instead, be a strong ethic of clear and forthright communication.

There should also be a strong ethic of consent and respect for personal space, e.g. not hugging someone without first asking if they want to be hugged. There should be a recognition that we're all different, with different needs.

Social skills that are needed in autistic-friendly spaces as well as in the mainstream NT world include basic courtesy, e.g. "Hi", "Bye", "Please", and "Thank you".

There are also some social skills that I think are needed more by us in an autistic-friendly space than by NT's in the NT world. These include:

1) Assertiveness (without being aggressive).
2) Active listening.
3) Giving and receiving constructive criticism.
4) Conflict resolution.

I think these skills are probably easier for many of us to learn, and less exhausting to exercise once learned, than the art of pretending to be NT. Some of these skills may even come more naturally to (at least some of) us than to NT's. Many NT's do not have these skills, preferring instead to rely on subtle hints.

Yet the above-listed autistic-friendly skills can also be useful in many mainstream NT workplaces -- although, of course, greater care would need to be taken when exercising them there. There are, currently in the NT world, many jobs in which these skills are required. As a result, there are many tutorials about these skills available on the web.

Note: When I speak about "assertiveness" and "active listening" as being needed in order for us to get along in an autistic-friendly space, I am talking about the purely verbal aspects of these skills. These days, many of the above-mentioned web tutorials on assertiveness and active listening emphasize eye contact and body language. In an autistic-friendly space, we should be able to ignore that stuff and focus just on the content of what is being said.

Anyhow, I would be interested in other people's thoughts about the differences between (1) "social skills" in the sense of pretending to be NT and (2) the kinds of social skills we need in order to get along with each other, and with autistic-friendly NT's, in an autistic-friendly space. Can you think of any skills in the latter category that I haven't mentioned?

EDIT: Another relevant thread from a while back: Social rules of autistic-friendly social spaces?


Great read...Very informative...Thank you... :heart:
I hope you all Aspies don't get offended each time i send you all a virtual hug...(Joke) :wink:



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19 Nov 2020, 6:44 pm

kraftiekortie wrote:
In general, we should seek to meet NTs halfway; and they should do the same.

... ... ...
One word...COMPROMISE...
it is the key to the success of any relationship...
:heart: :heart: :heart:



Clueless2017
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19 Nov 2020, 6:46 pm

JustFoundHere wrote:
Here in the 'Social Skills and Making Friends' forum, I've advocated friendships with NTs who are receptive to further understanding HFA. These can include NTs who've had some types of professional experience with HFA colleagues/clientele.

From my own personal experiences, the potential of such friendships offers encouragement regarding HFA.

I would be very helpful to receive feedback from those regions that are "ahead of the curve" on HFA awareness!


... ... ...
Thank you for not excluding NTs...
We are more alike than we are different...
Because we are all humans... :heart: :heart: :heart:



Last edited by Clueless2017 on 19 Nov 2020, 8:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Clueless2017
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19 Nov 2020, 6:50 pm

Mona Pereth wrote:
kraftiekortie wrote:
In general, we should seek to meet NTs halfway; and they should do the same.

What are some examples of what you mean by "meeting NTs halfway"?

In my opinion, we should seek to make friends with autistic-friendly NT's/allistics. I define an autistic-friendly person as one who accepts us as we are and does not expect us to imitate NT's in ways that are particularly difficult or that cause us undue stress.


An autistic-friendly NT would never want to hurt you...
It is only a matter of educating us [You, Aspies, educate us, NTs], so that we know how to proceed in our interactions with you...Most people do better when they know better... :heart: :heart: :heart:



Clueless2017
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19 Nov 2020, 7:10 pm

Mona Pereth wrote:
I think you may have misunderstood the point of this thread. By "autistic-friendly social skills," I meant the skills needed in order to get along with each other within an environment specifically intended to be autistic-friendly. What you seem to be talking about, on the other hand, is the attempt to find a workable compromise for autistic people to try to get along in an NT-dominated environment without trying so hard as to seem "creepy." That's a worthwhile topic in itself, but perhaps we could discuss it in a separate thread?


Got it!... :D



KimD
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19 Nov 2020, 7:35 pm

Clueless2017 wrote:
JustFoundHere wrote:
Here in the 'Social Skills and Making Friends' forum, I've advocated friendships with NTs who are receptive to further understanding HFA. These can include NTs who've had some types of professional experience with HFA colleagues/clientele.

From my own personal experiences, the potential of such friendships offers encouragement regarding HFA.

I would be very helpful to receive feedback from those regions that are "ahead of the curve" on HFA awareness!


... ... ...
Thank you for not excluding NTs...
We are more alike than we are different...
Because we are all humans... :heart: :heart: :jester:


I want to second what Clueless, Cyberdad, and I think a few other NTs have said; I want to understand on a genuine level. I'm grateful that WP has opened its doors to NT clods like me!



Clueless2017
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19 Nov 2020, 7:56 pm

Mona Pereth wrote:
I think you may have misunderstood the point of this thread. By "autistic-friendly social skills," I meant the skills needed in order to get along with each other within an environment specifically intended to be autistic-friendly. What you seem to be talking about, on the other hand, is the attempt to find a workable compromise for autistic people to try to get along in an NT-dominated environment without trying so hard as to seem "creepy." That's a worthwhile topic in itself, but perhaps we could discuss it in a separate thread?

... ... ...
Thank you for the clarification...
I also misunderstood... :D



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11 Feb 2021, 11:51 pm



Inside My Autistic Mind: Active Listening by Nathan Selove, Sep 4, 2019 -- a funny video showing some of the pitfalls of trying to imitate NT body language.


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12 Feb 2021, 12:03 am

I've added a collection of tutorials about active listening to my website. Here's my introduction:

Quote:
"Active listening," also known as "reflective listening," is a methodology originally developed by Carl Rogers in the 1950s for use by psychotherapists. But it was soon popularized as being useful for everyone, not just psychotherapists, in many different professions and many different contexts.

The methodology of "active listening" seems to be widely encouraged in corporate America, at least in principle. I have no idea how widely it is actually practiced, but Googling the string "active listening business management" or "active listening job interview" does bring up lots of results (most of which are not included among the links below). It is apparently regarded as a very desirable skill.

So not only we, but also the NT's in our lives, could benefit from learning "active listening" techniques if they have not done so already, not only to help them communicate better with us, but also as a possible benefit to their own careers.

Note: "Active listening" has some aspects that are very difficult for many autistic and similarly neurodivergent people, but it has other aspects that are much easier. And the good news is that, in terms of improved communication and conflict prevention/resolution, we can get a lot of mileage out of just the relatively easy parts, ignoring the more difficult parts. (That's been true in my experience, at least.)

Many of us will have extreme difficulty with the nonverbal stuff (eye contact, body language, etc.). And many of us will have difficulty with tentatively naming the other person's feelings (which, if done inappropriately, can all too easily come across as patronizing and/or overly intimate, rather than empathic).

But I think many of us can probably learn, without too much difficulty, to paraphrase and ask good clarifying questions about the content of what the person we are talking to is saying. Some of us already tend naturally to do this -- and some of u s may overdo it.

Many NT's do not have the latter, more content-oriented set of active listening skills, which is why there are so many tutorials on "active listening."

Though NT's may, on average, be much better than we could ever hope to be at picking up on all manner of odds and ends of unspoken social subtleties (at least when talking to other NT's), and though they may be much better at shifting their attention around amongst multiple people in a room or multiple topics in a conversation, they are not necessarily any better than many of us are at listening to or understanding the actual content of what another person is saying in a single topic-focused one-on-one conversation, nor are they necessarily any better at asking intelligent questions about same.

Many of us do have more trouble than NT's with absorbing too much and/or too varied content all at once, but the interactions of the active listening methodology naturally break the content up into smaller, more digestible chunks.

So I think many of us are probably just as capable as most NT's of learning the purely content-oriented aspects of "active listening." On the other hand, as for the nonverbal stuff, some of us will just have to excuse ourselves and let people know that we can't do NT eye contact rhythms. Once people get used to us and get to know us well, they can learn to recognize when we are or are not listening.


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12 Feb 2021, 7:02 am

I just now added the following important paragraph to the above:

For those of us who have difficulty speaking or processing other people's speech but are better at written/typed communication, the purely content-oriented aspects of the "active listening" methodology can be applied just as well to written/typed communication as to spoken communication.


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Vito
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08 Mar 2021, 8:34 am

I don’t want to offend anybody, but it appears to me that this discussion omits one important aspect of social interaction – the fact that the behavioral patterns that NTs expect from others are primarily aimed at making others feel comfortable and important. Consider eye contact in 1-on-1 conversation. In comparison with the verbal content, eye contact conveys very little additional information value to the participant and for that purpose it’s unnecessary; its main purpose (it seems to me) is to make the speaker feel important by conveying that what he says matters to the listener.

I therefore think that instant of trying to “blend in” with the NTs, much more sensible strategy for NDs is to learn the kind of social skills that make people around you feel important and comfortable. The thing is that most NTs are actually decent people who tend to naturally reciprocate positive behavior. Furthermore, majority of people tend to be quite forgiving when dealing with odd behavior of someone they like and accept so learning those social skills eventually pays off.

As for the particular social skills themselves, I think that it is much better to focus on modifying your own behavior and body language based on the type of social situation you’re in rather than on the perceived mood and body language of the other person. The thing is, the variability of types of social situations encountered in everyday life is relatively small and as such it is not that difficult to learn and practice blueprints of acceptable behaviors for every single type of these situations.

Personally, I made a considerable progress in my social interactions after I started to learn and apply social skills described in How to Make Friends and Influence People by Dale Carnegie, which deals with patterns of behavior that are aimed at making other people feel important, and body language as described by Joe Navarro in What Every BODY Is Saying, which, among other things, raises the important point of what gestures and body postures are perceived as accommodating and make others feel comfortable. The thing is, most of the behavioral patterns outlined in those books can be memorized and applied relatively easily irrespective of the individual’s ability to read emotions and body language of others. Furthermore, learning those patterns can give you significant advantage over many NTs in social interactions. You would be surprised how many NTs do not follow the patterns outlined in these books, even though they’re clearly advantageous (consider how majority of people criticize others, are underappreciative, etc.). I could elaborate more on this point, but the post would be too long, I’m afraid.

Finally, regarding the autistic-friendly social skills, while it’s definitely a good idea to educate NTs about specific behavior of NDs, still I believe that those NDs who make the effort to learn the abovementioned social skills will be preferred (at least unconsciously) over those who don’t, for the simple reason that the NTs are simply “hard-wired” to feel more comfortable around people who exhibit certain behavioral patterns.