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Pepe
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15 Jun 2019, 6:53 pm

Does "Trickle down economics" work?

I'm not au fait with economic paradigms but based on what I have heard, there is little benefit in giving large corporations major tax reductions a la Trump.

Australia is considering this also to boost the economy.
It makes more sense to me to super-charge low to middle-income individuals and small business to vitalise the retail industry via disposable income, for example.


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I'm a thinker. Some think I'm a stinker. Pepe le Pew. ;)
Down with big business!...
I'm not here to change the world...There isn't a big enough soiled nappy bin... ;)
Autistic/scout motto: "Give me a better argument and I will listen..."
"Honesty is not a social duty, not a sacrifice for the sake of others, but the most profoundly selfish virtue man can practice: his refusal to sacrifice the reality of his own existence to the deluded consciousness of others."
Truth may be inconvenient but it is never politically incorrect...The Oracle of Truth has spoken...8) I'm a rationalist...Deal with it...:mrgreen:


kraftiekortie
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15 Jun 2019, 7:10 pm

Trickle-down economics is like the poor folk receiving the scraps (the “trickle”) from the rich folks’ meals like dogs.



TheRevengeofTW1ZTY
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15 Jun 2019, 7:22 pm

Yeah, no thanks.


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Pepe
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15 Jun 2019, 7:41 pm

kraftiekortie wrote:
Trickle-down economics is like the poor folk receiving the scraps (the “trickle”) from the rich folks’ meals like dogs.


We here in Australia have a TV program called: "Planet Amerika".
They are part of the left-leaning ABC network, but facts are facts.
However, :mrgreen: "Alternative facts" need to be considered also. <chuckle>

They presented statistics and graphs which seemed compelling.
But could this be a case of: "Lies, damn lies and statistics"?
Possibly but I tend to believe what was said, largely due to my knowledge of human psychology.
Isn't "profits before people" the catch-phrase of large corporations?
Psychopathy is an integral element in big business, after all. <shrug>


_________________
I'm a thinker. Some think I'm a stinker. Pepe le Pew. ;)
Down with big business!...
I'm not here to change the world...There isn't a big enough soiled nappy bin... ;)
Autistic/scout motto: "Give me a better argument and I will listen..."
"Honesty is not a social duty, not a sacrifice for the sake of others, but the most profoundly selfish virtue man can practice: his refusal to sacrifice the reality of his own existence to the deluded consciousness of others."
Truth may be inconvenient but it is never politically incorrect...The Oracle of Truth has spoken...8) I'm a rationalist...Deal with it...:mrgreen:


TheRevengeofTW1ZTY
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15 Jun 2019, 7:55 pm

Pepe wrote:
kraftiekortie wrote:
Trickle-down economics is like the poor folk receiving the scraps (the “trickle”) from the rich folks’ meals like dogs.


We here in Australia have a TV program called: "Planet Amerika".
They are part of the left-leaning ABC network, but facts are facts.
However, :mrgreen: "Alternative facts" need to be considered also. <chuckle>

They presented statistics and graphs which seemed compelling.
But could this be a case of: "Lies, damn lies and statistics"?
Possibly but I tend to believe what was said, largely due to my knowledge of human psychology.
Isn't "profits before people" the catch-phrase of large corporations?
Psychopathy is an integral element in big business, after all. <shrug>


Don't confuse psycopathy with sociopathy. Most psychopaths are incapable of functioning in the corporate world. :P


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jimmy m
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15 Jun 2019, 10:07 pm

In general, low income people do not pay taxes and many times there are so many loopholes in the tax code that the rich avoid paying high taxes. It is the middle class that is most affected. When higher taxes are proposed for the rich, it translates into higher taxes for the middle class. Which pushes the middle class down producing a society with only low income and very high income individuals. And this approach destroys the will to innovate.

So in my humble opinion, trickle down economics worked when implemented by Ronald Reagan and Donald Trump. Whereas raising taxes only crashes the economy.



TheRevengeofTW1ZTY
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16 Jun 2019, 3:16 am

jimmy m wrote:
In general, low income people do not pay taxes and many times there are so many loopholes in the tax code that the rich avoid paying high taxes. It is the middle class that is most affected. When higher taxes are proposed for the rich, it translates into higher taxes for the middle class. Which pushes the middle class down producing a society with only low income and very high income individuals. And this approach destroys the will to innovate.

So in my humble opinion, trickle down economics worked when implemented by Ronald Reagan and Donald Trump. Whereas raising taxes only crashes the economy.


You do know that Ronald Reagan is the one who screwed our economy over with NAFTA in the first place, right?


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LoveNotHate
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16 Jun 2019, 3:45 am

TheRevengeofTW1ZTY wrote:
jimmy m wrote:
In general, low income people do not pay taxes and many times there are so many loopholes in the tax code that the rich avoid paying high taxes. It is the middle class that is most affected. When higher taxes are proposed for the rich, it translates into higher taxes for the middle class. Which pushes the middle class down producing a society with only low income and very high income individuals. And this approach destroys the will to innovate.

So in my humble opinion, trickle down economics worked when implemented by Ronald Reagan and Donald Trump. Whereas raising taxes only crashes the economy.


You do know that Ronald Reagan is the one who screwed our economy over with NAFTA in the first place, right?

Bill Clinton created NAFTA.

Clinton signs NAFTA into law, Dec. 8, 1993
https://www.politico.com/story/2018/12/ ... 93-1040789


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TheRevengeofTW1ZTY
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16 Jun 2019, 3:55 am

Reagan deserves most of the credit for that mess seeing how it was all originally his idea.

https://www.heritage.org/trade/commenta ... th-america


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Pepe
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16 Jun 2019, 5:15 am

jimmy m wrote:
In general, low income people do not pay taxes and many times there are so many loopholes in the tax code that the rich avoid paying high taxes. It is the middle class that is most affected. When higher taxes are proposed for the rich, it translates into higher taxes for the middle class. Which pushes the middle class down producing a society with only low income and very high income individuals. And this approach destroys the will to innovate.

So in my humble opinion, trickle down economics worked when implemented by Ronald Reagan and Donald Trump. Whereas raising taxes only crashes the economy.


According to "Planet Amerika", cutting the tax rate for the rich has done bugger-all for the low to middle-income workers while the loss of tax revenue has caused a spike in the Amerikan deficit.
The stats/graphs are suggesting the Amerikan fiscal situation will be hit hard down the track, and if so, most Amerikans will be hit hard also when/if the scheisse hits the fan. 8O

BTW, I am very much in favour of a strong Amerika.
I am taking an impartial position here and have no agenda to push.

The Oracle of Truth signing off. :wink:


_________________
I'm a thinker. Some think I'm a stinker. Pepe le Pew. ;)
Down with big business!...
I'm not here to change the world...There isn't a big enough soiled nappy bin... ;)
Autistic/scout motto: "Give me a better argument and I will listen..."
"Honesty is not a social duty, not a sacrifice for the sake of others, but the most profoundly selfish virtue man can practice: his refusal to sacrifice the reality of his own existence to the deluded consciousness of others."
Truth may be inconvenient but it is never politically incorrect...The Oracle of Truth has spoken...8) I'm a rationalist...Deal with it...:mrgreen:


Pepe
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16 Jun 2019, 5:24 am

TheRevengeofTW1ZTY wrote:
Pepe wrote:
kraftiekortie wrote:
Trickle-down economics is like the poor folk receiving the scraps (the “trickle”) from the rich folks’ meals like dogs.


We here in Australia have a TV program called: "Planet Amerika".
They are part of the left-leaning ABC network, but facts are facts.
However, :mrgreen: "Alternative facts" need to be considered also. <chuckle>

They presented statistics and graphs which seemed compelling.
But could this be a case of: "Lies, damn lies and statistics"?
Possibly but I tend to believe what was said, largely due to my knowledge of human psychology.
Isn't "profits before people" the catch-phrase of large corporations?
Psychopathy is an integral element in big business, after all. <shrug>


Don't confuse psycopathy with sociopathy. Most psychopaths are incapable of functioning in the corporate world. :P


Quote:
Careers with highest proportion of psychopaths

According to Dutton, the ten careers that have the highest proportion of psychopaths are:[17]

CEO
Lawyer
Media (TV/radio)
Salesperson
Surgeon
Journalist
Police officer
Clergy
Chef
Civil servant

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychopat ... sychopaths


_________________
I'm a thinker. Some think I'm a stinker. Pepe le Pew. ;)
Down with big business!...
I'm not here to change the world...There isn't a big enough soiled nappy bin... ;)
Autistic/scout motto: "Give me a better argument and I will listen..."
"Honesty is not a social duty, not a sacrifice for the sake of others, but the most profoundly selfish virtue man can practice: his refusal to sacrifice the reality of his own existence to the deluded consciousness of others."
Truth may be inconvenient but it is never politically incorrect...The Oracle of Truth has spoken...8) I'm a rationalist...Deal with it...:mrgreen:


TheRevengeofTW1ZTY
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16 Jun 2019, 7:26 am

Pepe wrote:
TheRevengeofTW1ZTY wrote:
Pepe wrote:
kraftiekortie wrote:
Trickle-down economics is like the poor folk receiving the scraps (the “trickle”) from the rich folks’ meals like dogs.


We here in Australia have a TV program called: "Planet Amerika".
They are part of the left-leaning ABC network, but facts are facts.
However, :mrgreen: "Alternative facts" need to be considered also. <chuckle>

They presented statistics and graphs which seemed compelling.
But could this be a case of: "Lies, damn lies and statistics"?
Possibly but I tend to believe what was said, largely due to my knowledge of human psychology.
Isn't "profits before people" the catch-phrase of large corporations?
Psychopathy is an integral element in big business, after all. <shrug>


Don't confuse psycopathy with sociopathy. Most psychopaths are incapable of functioning in the corporate world. :P


Quote:
Careers with highest proportion of psychopaths

According to Dutton, the ten careers that have the highest proportion of psychopaths are:[17]

CEO
Lawyer
Media (TV/radio)
Salesperson
Surgeon
Journalist
Police officer
Clergy
Chef
Civil servant

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychopat ... sychopaths



Don't believe everything you read ESPECIALLY on wikipedia. They're really referring to SOCIOPATHS who are attracted to those jobs. There is a difference.


_________________
The Hearts teach us to feel pleasure and pain.
The Diamonds teach us to enjoy that we gain.
The Clubs teach us to work the goals we aim.
The Spades teach us to conquer all we claim.


TheRevengeofTW1ZTY
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16 Jun 2019, 7:43 am

But then again I'm no psychiatrist and the fact is that very little research has been done on psychopaths, sociopaths, and narcissists. It's like the so-called 'experts' either lump them all together or make absurd claims about the conditions.

Most real doctors will not actually diagnose a person with any of these conditions because all three are considered incurable and untreatable and they will be unable to profit off of their patients, so they write their problems off as something else like "depression" or a "personality disorder" so that they can keep making money.


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The Hearts teach us to feel pleasure and pain.
The Diamonds teach us to enjoy that we gain.
The Clubs teach us to work the goals we aim.
The Spades teach us to conquer all we claim.


The_Walrus
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16 Jun 2019, 9:01 am

Asking whether trickle down economics works is a bit like asking whether eating works. On one level, obviously it does... but then the question is what constitutes "working"? What situation are you in and where are you trying to get to? Eating cures starvation, and eating the right thing cures malnutrition, but eating poison will kill you.

I don't claim to have all the answers but there are certainly situations where cutting taxes stimulates economic growth, and economic growth nearly always benefits the poor. However, cutting taxes from the levels seen in modern industrialised nations will not pay for itself, as some libertarian economists may maintain.

Pepe raises two specifics in his OP:

Quote:
there is little benefit in giving large corporations major tax reductions a la Trump.

Australia is considering this also to boost the economy.

This is not a simple question.

First off, we need to determine the incidence of the tax. Who is actually bearing the burden? For example, inheritance tax (or estate tax) is technically "paid" by the person who dies, but the people who inherit are the ones who are worse off. Import tariffs are the same - yes, it's the company that pays, but a very large proportion of that cost is passed onto the domestic consumer.

Determining the incidence of corporation tax is very hard. Estimates range from 20% to 80% being borne by employees. I believe that there is generally a consensus that it is a little over 50%, but I am not in a position to evaluate that.

If 80% of corporation tax effectively comes out of wages then cutting corporation tax would seem like a very effective way to create jobs and put money in people's pockets. Again it probably wouldn't pay for itself, but it could be a sensible move in times of recession.

Then we have to consider the competitiveness of the economy. If corporation tax is high then corporations are unlikely to want to be based there, although whether this actually impacts upon the economy depends on a range of factors and so there may be situations where governments can adjust taxes without affecting their attractiveness. I think Australia is probably relatively unlikely to benefit from tax cuts in this way as geography and a high cost of living (and corresponding high wages) make it difficult to compete with the US, EU, and China.
Quote:
It makes more sense to me to super-charge low to middle-income individuals and small business to vitalise the retail industry via disposable income, for example.

On one hand, it is obvious that cutting income taxes will mean that people have more money in their pockets - assuming they were paying tax to begin with.

Whether this would translate to a wider economic benefit, again, depends on the economic conditions.

One thing to bear in mind is that income tax is usually a government's primary source of income. If you cut it then you have to be prepared for a drop in revenues.

However, the moral case against excessively taxing the poor is very strong.

TheRevengeofTW1ZTY wrote:
But then again I'm no psychiatrist and the fact is that very little research has been done on psychopaths, sociopaths, and narcissists. It's like the so-called 'experts' either lump them all together or make absurd claims about the conditions.

My understanding is that "sociopath" and "psychopath" are entirely interchangable terms.

Do you have a reason to think that experts are wrong to lump them together?



Pepe
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16 Jun 2019, 9:07 am

TheRevengeofTW1ZTY wrote:
Pepe wrote:
TheRevengeofTW1ZTY wrote:
Pepe wrote:
kraftiekortie wrote:
Trickle-down economics is like the poor folk receiving the scraps (the “trickle”) from the rich folks’ meals like dogs.


We here in Australia have a TV program called: "Planet Amerika".
They are part of the left-leaning ABC network, but facts are facts.
However, :mrgreen: "Alternative facts" need to be considered also. <chuckle>

They presented statistics and graphs which seemed compelling.
But could this be a case of: "Lies, damn lies and statistics"?
Possibly but I tend to believe what was said, largely due to my knowledge of human psychology.
Isn't "profits before people" the catch-phrase of large corporations?
Psychopathy is an integral element in big business, after all. <shrug>


Don't confuse psycopathy with sociopathy. Most psychopaths are incapable of functioning in the corporate world. :P


Quote:
Careers with highest proportion of psychopaths

According to Dutton, the ten careers that have the highest proportion of psychopaths are:[17]

CEO
Lawyer
Media (TV/radio)
Salesperson
Surgeon
Journalist
Police officer
Clergy
Chef
Civil servant

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychopat ... sychopaths



Don't believe everything you read ESPECIALLY on wikipedia. They're really referring to SOCIOPATHS who are attracted to those jobs. There is a difference.


Quote:
Psychopaths tend to be more manipulative, can be seen by others as more charming, lead a semblance of a normal life, and minimize risk in criminal activities. Sociopaths tend to be more erratic, rage-prone, and unable to lead as much of a normal life. When sociopaths engage in criminal activity, they tend to do so in a reckless manner without regard to consequences. https://psychcentral.com/blog/differenc ... sociopath/


Quote:
In the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, or DSM-5, someone with a psychopathic personality type is defined as having an inflated, grandiose sense of themself, and a knack for manipulating other people. But a diagnosis is rarely simple.

One thing psychopaths tend to have in common is the careers they go for. For example, you’re likely to find a lot of them in leadership positions because of their ruthlessness, charisma, and fearlessness. They’re very good at making snap decisions, but not so good at the empathetic professions like nursing or therapy. https://www.businessinsider.com.au/prof ... ?r=US&IR=T


_________________
I'm a thinker. Some think I'm a stinker. Pepe le Pew. ;)
Down with big business!...
I'm not here to change the world...There isn't a big enough soiled nappy bin... ;)
Autistic/scout motto: "Give me a better argument and I will listen..."
"Honesty is not a social duty, not a sacrifice for the sake of others, but the most profoundly selfish virtue man can practice: his refusal to sacrifice the reality of his own existence to the deluded consciousness of others."
Truth may be inconvenient but it is never politically incorrect...The Oracle of Truth has spoken...8) I'm a rationalist...Deal with it...:mrgreen: