Reparations for slavery debated in Congress

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blazingstar
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22 Jun 2019, 4:41 pm

I see a lot of half-truths and a great lack of education in history posted here.

It is true that slavery was practiced really across the world at various times. Yes, there were slaves in Africa when white people were purchasing slaves. And there were some black African groups who specialized in raiding, collecting "slaves" and selling them to the white traders. There is still some practice of slavery in the Sahara. But not all blacks rounded up for the slave trade in the new colonies were slaves.

Of course you can find individual people of African descent who have differing opinions about a wide range of topics. That doesn't prove anything one way or the other.

Krafty, Twisty and Aunt Blabby have some good things to contribute to this topic. It is a shame to have their input dismissed (dare I say snarkily?) because some consider us "the left" or whatever other type of group you (editorially) don't like.

This is the news subforum. It would be good, I think, if the ranting and raving were confined to the PPR subforum. I am not calling out any particular individual here. Just a general comment. :heart: :heart: I'd like to participate in some actual discussions. :D

One of the things I like most about WP is hearing different points of view, bringing up different perspectives, different things to think about. I don't know, it could be because I am aspie, but I have a hard time hearing when there is so much yelling. (joke, because no one ever gets my jokes.) :D


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auntblabby
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23 Jun 2019, 12:05 am

^^^ QFT :star:



Wolfram87
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23 Jun 2019, 4:06 am

Would these reparations also extend to the descendants of black slave-owners?


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TheRevengeofTW1ZTY
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23 Jun 2019, 4:21 am

Wolfram87 wrote:
Would these reparations also extend to the descendants of black slave-owners?



Probably not, but yeah I'm well aware that black people in both Africa and in even American states like Lousiana owned slaves too.

Does that justify slavery? Hell f*****g no!


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Wolfram87
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23 Jun 2019, 4:56 am

By no means trying to justify slavery. Just wondering along which lines who gets reparations and who doesn't is to be determined.


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auntblabby
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23 Jun 2019, 5:25 am

being that the black slave owners and their descendants were/are vastly outnumbered by the rest, it is a "rounding error" to just arrange accommodations for american blackfolk in general, mebbe with special attention to the inner city and rural areas. not necessarily direct cash payments but everything else is on the table [affirmative action and tax code].



TheRevengeofTW1ZTY
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23 Jun 2019, 5:26 am

Wolfram87 wrote:
By no means trying to justify slavery. Just wondering along which lines who gets reparations and who doesn't is to be determined.


I know Mr Wolf, I meant that to the other guys who do use that as an excuse to justify the way Africans were treated.


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Wolfram87
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23 Jun 2019, 5:38 am

auntblabby wrote:
being that the black slave owners and their descendants were/are vastly outnumbered by the rest, it is a "rounding error" to just arrange accommodations for american blackfolk in general, mebbe with special attention to the inner city and rural areas. not necessarily direct cash payments but everything else is on the table [affirmative action and tax code].


I'm all for improving the living conditions in bad areas, but that then runs the risk of not being considered targeted enough to count as reparations. And whatever form these reparations will take, will they come with a reciprocal stipulation that the recipient can no longer point to slavery as the fundamental cause of whatever future bad situations may befall them?


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auntblabby
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23 Jun 2019, 5:42 am

Wolfram87 wrote:
auntblabby wrote:
being that the black slave owners and their descendants were/are vastly outnumbered by the rest, it is a "rounding error" to just arrange accommodations for american blackfolk in general, mebbe with special attention to the inner city and rural areas. not necessarily direct cash payments but everything else is on the table [affirmative action and tax code].


I'm all for improving the living conditions in bad areas, but that then runs the risk of not being considered targeted enough to count as reparations. And whatever form these reparations will take, will they come with a reciprocal stipulation that the recipient can no longer point to slavery as the fundamental cause of whatever future bad situations may befall them?

more socially intelligent/compassionate people of influence will intuitively understand that whatever society does at this point is at best only a weak approximation of justice for the millions of slavery descendants. this being the case, it does no good to mean-spiritedly say to such folk, "we're helping you now so shaddup about slavery."



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23 Jun 2019, 5:45 am

auntblabby wrote:
being the case, it does no good to mean-spiritedly say to such folk, "we're helping you now so shaddup about slavery."


THANK YOU!


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auntblabby
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23 Jun 2019, 5:47 am

^^^prego :flower:



Wolfram87
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23 Jun 2019, 5:56 am

Obviously. But I can't help but drawing a bit of a comparison of the Greece-Germany thing with reparations for WW2. I can't recall the whole thing off the top of my head, but I think modern day Germany has on three separate occasions paid huge sums of money as reparations for the deveastation WW2 caused in Greece, at least one of which came with an agreement that Germany had paid their debt on that account. Then when the latest big financial collapse of Greece, it immediately came up again; "Hey Germany, remember the Nazis? Give us money."
Now, I fully concede that Germany screwed Greece big-time during that whole mess, but I still think that was an unfair move. Obviously I don't think big heaps of German money make up for the lives lost and suffering caused by WW2, but I also don't think that should function as a neverending wellspring of guilt that can be used to get ones way. Especially since the Germany of today is an entirely different nation to what it was then. See the paralells I'm getting at?


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TheRevengeofTW1ZTY
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23 Jun 2019, 6:04 am

Wolfram87 wrote:
Obviously. But I can't help but drawing a bit of a comparison of the Greece-Germany thing with reparations for WW2. I can't recall the whole thing off the top of my head, but I think modern day Germany has on three separate occasions paid huge sums of money as reparations for the deveastation WW2 caused in Greece, at least one of which came with an agreement that Germany had paid their debt on that account. Then when the latest big financial collapse of Greece, it immediately came up again; "Hey Germany, remember the Nazis? Give us money."
Now, I fully concede that Germany screwed Greece big-time during that whole mess, but I still think that was an unfair move. Obviously I don't think big heaps of German money make up for the lives lost and suffering caused by WW2, but I also don't think that should function as a neverending wellspring of guilt that can be used to get ones way. Especially since the Germany of today is an entirely different nation to what it was then. See the paralells I'm getting at?


At least Germany actually paid for their war crimes, unlike Americans when it comes to the bad s**t we do (like in Abu Ghraib).

George W. Bush is still living the high life being honored as a former American president while many Iraqi POWs have recieved no real justice for being raped, tortured, and murdered by him and his people.

I think Americans have done plenty to be ashamed of themselves.


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23 Jun 2019, 6:08 am

i grok what you're getting at about germany and greece. our situation here is a bit more straightforward. many blackfolk as a direct legacy of slavery and jim crow have not been allowed to assimilate and build up generational currency that other races have accomplished. i am speaking of things like redlining that local gov'ts and banks [hand in glove] did in many cities which prevented black folk from getting house loans thus being in thrall to landlords and losing the generational benefits of home ownership [the ability to save money and generate inheritance compared to other races], multiplied by at least 4 generations. so in my thinking at least it will take 4 or more generations of societal accommodation to get within a ballpark figure of parity based on measurable stats such as the rate of participation in the criminal justice system, life span/health indices and the typical savings rate and home ownership rate. the POC are a special situation requiring a special process of remediation.



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23 Jun 2019, 6:10 am

i fear amuuuurica has used up its time to fix things. we crossed the rubicon.



blazingstar
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23 Jun 2019, 8:15 am

Wolfram makes a good point about having the debt go on and on without an end. Perhaps this is like the tobacco companies or the oil companies settling the complaints against their businesses.

Obviously the damage done goes on for generations (I don't know much about Germany and Greece.) The explanation AB gives is pretty much on track. But there has to be an end point, I think, in order to move forward.

I am just thinking here: There is some difference between Greece and Germany because they are actual countries. For blacks in the USA, there is no country to advocate for them. And the USA is/was too big to have anyone else "make" them make the reparations that were probably due in the 1800s. Does an old debt mean the debt is dismissed? Perhaps it does.

Could we instead, as someone suggested earlier, just implement structural changes in our society/government to level the playing field for all who live here. (I was about to write "citizens" and then decided that would open another can of worms. :D

I also fear AB is right about crossing the Rubicon. But that's a terrible message to promote to the younger people.

Twisty, you are correct that the USA, my country too, has done many very terrible things. I would hope, that just like with people, you can find some of the good in it too. It may require a decade or two of raging, though. :D


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