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QFT
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27 Jun 2019, 7:10 pm

I realize that Asperger and autism have commonalities, but there are other disorders that also have commonalities with autism that are classified separately -- in particular, Schizoid Personality Disorder and Social Communication Disorder. Do you think one or both of those two disorders should be brought under autism umbrella? If not, then should Asperger be taken "out" of autism umbrella to be joined with one of those two other disorders?

Yes I realize that Social Communication Disorder is only there in DSM 5 and, in DSM 5, they don't have Asperger. But I meant to talk about when/if Asperger will be re-introduced, say in DSM 6. So if DSM 6 decides to re-introduce Asperger and, at the same time, keep Social Communication Disorder, do you think it should group Asperger and Social Communication Disorder into some category separate from autism, or do you think it should bring both disorders under autism umbrella?

And as far as Schizoid Personality its even better question since DSM 4 had it too -- and it also had Asperger. So do you think Asperger and Schizoid Personality should be connected? One way to connect them is to move Asperger away from autism and into Cluster A Personality Disorders, and the other way to connect them is to move Schizoid Personality from Cluster A personality disorders into autism?

What do you think?



Persephone29
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27 Jun 2019, 8:05 pm

I don't live in a fantasy world, so I would be opposed to merging Schizoid and Aspergers. I may live in my own world sometimes, but every horror in it is real. Just my two...


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Mona Pereth
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27 Jun 2019, 8:11 pm

The only significant difference between what used to be called "Asperger's syndrome" and what used to be called "High Functioning Autism" was that HFA's had a speech delay whereas AS people did not. That's a difference that's important in early childhood, but not very important at all once the person has reached adulthood. Do you really think it's an important enough difference to justify a separate diagnostic category?

On the other hand, autism and schizoid personality disorder are fundamentally different things. (See How to Distinguish Between Schizoid Personality Disorder and Autism.) Autism (including Asperger's) is something you are born with whereas Schizoid PD develops later. The two can co-occur, with Schizoid PD being one way of coping with being autistic in an unaccepting world.


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27 Jun 2019, 8:22 pm

I suppose my answer would depend on WHY you want it re-classified. It makes little difference to my own life where I am classified (or if I am classified at all). I realized some people need to be in a certain place on the spectrum to receive accomodations and/or benefits, but as an adult, I'm not receiving either at this point.



QFT
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27 Jun 2019, 8:27 pm

Persephone29 wrote:
I don't live in a fantasy world, so I would be opposed to merging Schizoid and Aspergers. I may live in my own world sometimes, but every horror in it is real. Just my two...


Are you sure you aren't confusing Schizoid with Schizotypal? According to DSM 4, the Schizotypals live in fantasy world, but not Schizoids.



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27 Jun 2019, 8:34 pm

Mona Pereth wrote:
Autism (including Asperger's) is something you are born with whereas Schizoid PD develops later.


I think Schizoid is also partly influenced by how you were born. Yes, it says that, as a personality disorder, it can't be diagnosed until adolescence/ early adulthood. But do you really think that someone was really extraverted as a child but then, when they hit certain age, they just magically turned into super-introverted schizoid? Sounds unlikely. I think what is a lot more reasonable is that they were born as an introvert, and then as they got older, those introverted traits they were born with were reinforced by the environment and then it developed into a personality disorder.

And similarly with Asperger. Yes, you get Asperger from birth. But the problems I had as a kid aren't nearly the same as the problems I had as an adult. As a kid I was assumign I simply don't care what others think, but then as an adult I encountered some situation that made me care about it and lead me to develop anger problems. Did I have anger problems as a child? No. Yet they are CONNECTED to something I DID have as a child -- namely my Asperger -- which just presented itself in different ways in different life contexts.

So I guess those considerations can bridge a gap between Asperger and Schizoid. Yes, there is a difference in quantity: which component is bigger, the one that you have from birth or the way you deal with it in the context of adult life? But both components play a role in both cases, the only issue is what is bigger. Thats why it can be a "spectrum". But instead of autism spectrum it would be Asperger vs Schizoid spectrum (whatever you might want to call it).



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27 Jun 2019, 9:47 pm

I wish Asperger's would be taken out of the autism umbrella. I think it should be a separate disorder, like dyspraxia, learning difficulties or ADHD. Most people with Asperger's that I know of are mostly eccentric, socially awkward but not clueless, good at masking, are highly sociable, can naturally make correct facial expressions and tone of voice and eye contact when interacting, and can even make friends and live a 'normal' life, even though they still may have symptoms like special interests (but know not to talk excessively about them), dislike loud noises (but may choose not to express it), may get angry or tearful, and prefer a routine or predictability. I'm not saying ALL people with Asperger's are like that, but what I'm saying is the people with diagnosed or self-diagnosed Asperger's that I've met (including me), or seen on TV in documentaries, seem more like quirky, eccentric NTs, with complex symptoms that are displayed in a masked way.
It's not fair that we have to be placed on the autism spectrum, especially when you read up about autism and most of the information about it doesn't describe you. I also don't like the real meaning of autism, which means 'self' or 'self-observed', 'selfish', ect.

That's just how I feel, it will probably stir up unwanted arguments but it's just my opinion.


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28 Jun 2019, 11:12 am

I don’t think Aspergers is officially coming back as “Aspergers” or “High Functioning Autism” or related. However the term is still in widespread use and likely will continue to be in widespread use for the foreseeable future so the OP’s question is relevant.

Aspergers is and was always considered a part of or a subcategory of autism. When Lorna Wing proposed Aspergers as a separate diagnosis in 1981 it was not because she thought it was a separate condition from autism but public relations/branding for a good cause. At that time there was a very strict diagnostic criteria for autism and it had a even more of “ret*d” and hopelessly broken person stereotypes then today. Her purpose was to help people who were struggling with undiagnosed autism to get a diagnosis. In her paper proposing Aspergers she explicitly stated she expected PARENTS to be more willing to get their kids an autism diagnosis if it was not called autism but Aspergers. Probably because of the Internet she was way more successful then anticipated. It is likely this site would not exist and most members would be un or misdiagnosed if the Aspergers diagnosis did not come into being.

Aspergers and the larger autism are a syndrome of many traits. Be it schizoid, ADHD etc have a much narrower range of diagnostic traits. As for right now Autism traits and Aspergers traits are pretty much the same. The wide range of severity is the reason it APPEARS to be different conditions. Severity ranges are common with many conditions and in most of those we separate them into subcategories not make them separate conditions.

The harm done to aspies because of the autism ret*d stereotypes are real and are damaging in many forms be they assumptions and incorrect therapies. The Aspergers stereotypes of rude socially awkward savants who are just to lazy and stubborn to conform also is harmful in many ways. So by separating the conditions we would just continue to replace one set of harmful prejudices with others.

As understand of Autism is new and incomplete it is possible that with time science will discover what we call the autism spectrum are separate conditions. There is a theory that there are “Autisms” but it is just that a theory at this point. These autisms if they do occur will not be likely to be separated by severity but other factors.

At this time we sans change in scientific understanding should not reclassify because
1. We hope science will find out we have a separate condition someday.
2. To give in to prejudices both internal and external
2A We don’t want to be associated with “ret*ds”
2AA We think we are some superior alien or the next stage in evolution only being held back because of others.


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28 Jun 2019, 11:24 am

ASPartOfMe wrote:
Probably because of the Internet she was way more successful then anticipated.


But there was no internet in 1981. Or are you saying there was, and it was just really obscure?

ASPartOfMe wrote:
These autisms if they do occur will not be likely to be separated by severity but other factors.


There is a good possibility that the split might be, in fact, along autism/asperger divide. I heard some studies that with autism right hemisphere is more developed and with asperger left hemisphere is more developed.



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28 Jun 2019, 11:51 am

ASPartOfMe
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28 Jun 2019, 7:10 pm

QFT wrote:
ASPartOfMe wrote:
Probably because of the Internet she was way more successful then anticipated.


But there was no internet in 1981. Or are you saying there was, and it was just really obscure?


There was an obscure internet in 1981. It did not start to become widely known until the early to middle 1990’s. The ICD manual added the Aspergers diagnosis in 1992 followed by the DCM manual in 1994 largely as a result of Lorna Wing’s lobbying. What was probably not anticipated was parents who prior to having internet access would have no way of knowing each other reading about it, communicating about it on the internet, recognizing what the other parents were talking about and getting their kid a diagnoses. Same principle with undiagnosed aspies.


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30 Jun 2019, 2:22 am

I would rather they have the autistic spectrum but have separate labels for those that don't have enough to be autistic but are still under the umbrella. It's like that with schizophrenia spectrum so why not with autism? This is something I don't get. Like social communication disorder could be under the autistic spectrum but they are not autistic just like how someone can have schizotypical disorder but are not a schizophrenic.

Actually it used to be like that with ASD, there was Asperger's and PDD-NOS, Rett Disorder, and the other thing. But no one called Rett's or the other thing autism but they did with Asperger's and PDD-NOS. My mom had always seen Asperger's as Asperger's and PDD-NOS as PDD-NOS but not autistic. So I grew up being told I wasn't autistic, only told I have Asperger's.


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30 Jun 2019, 2:24 am

Joe90 wrote:
I wish Asperger's would be taken out of the autism umbrella. I think it should be a separate disorder, like dyspraxia, learning difficulties or ADHD. Most people with Asperger's that I know of are mostly eccentric, socially awkward but not clueless, good at masking, are highly sociable, can naturally make correct facial expressions and tone of voice and eye contact when interacting, and can even make friends and live a 'normal' life, even though they still may have symptoms like special interests (but know not to talk excessively about them), dislike loud noises (but may choose not to express it), may get angry or tearful, and prefer a routine or predictability. I'm not saying ALL people with Asperger's are like that, but what I'm saying is the people with diagnosed or self-diagnosed Asperger's that I've met (including me), or seen on TV in documentaries, seem more like quirky, eccentric NTs, with complex symptoms that are displayed in a masked way.
It's not fair that we have to be placed on the autism spectrum, especially when you read up about autism and most of the information about it doesn't describe you. I also don't like the real meaning of autism, which means 'self' or 'self-observed', 'selfish', ect.

That's just how I feel, it will probably stir up unwanted arguments but it's just my opinion.


I notice how people online are already saying they have autistic spectrum or are on the autistic spectrum. I take it as they don't want to call themselves autistic or say they have autism.


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30 Jun 2019, 5:31 am

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So I grew up being told I wasn't autistic, only told I have Asperger's.


Me too. When I was first diagnosed, I was told "you have a tiny little bit of autism, but otherwise you have Asperger's, you are not autistic".


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Sam64
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30 Jun 2019, 6:24 am

One of the British posters on here said their brother was recently diagnosed with Aspergers even though it was meant to have been declassified here in 2013 and I also recently received information about Aspergers from the Autism service the doctor referred me to... the leaflet tells you about Aspergers, how it's diagnosed and that they can provide post-diagnostic groups with other people with Aspergers etc... And it says "Updated in 2018" so it's not a very old leaflet.

So I don't know what's going on, seems you can still be diagnosed with it here. I wonder if it's happening outside Britain too?



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30 Jun 2019, 7:06 am

Sam64 wrote:
One of the British posters on here said their brother was recently diagnosed with Aspergers even though it was meant to have been declassified here in 2013 and I also recently received information about Aspergers from the Autism service the doctor referred me to... the leaflet tells you about Aspergers, how it's diagnosed and that they can provide post-diagnostic groups with other people with Aspergers etc... And it says "Updated in 2018" so it's not a very old leaflet.

So I don't know what's going on, seems you can still be diagnosed with it here. I wonder if it's happening outside Britain too?


It was only declassified in USA, but not in Britain. I mean, USA uses DSM while Britain uses ICD. The DSM shifted from version 4 to version 5; but ICD didn't shift: it is still version 10, just like it used to be. When ICD 11 comes around, then perhaps Asperger will be declassified, but right now we don't have ICD 11 yet, so I don't see how they could possibly declassify Asperger in Europe, or make any other changes for that matter -- even if they wanted to.