El Paso mall shooting: At least 15 dead, 1 in custody

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cyberdad
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09 Aug 2019, 2:05 am

To me it's not. He might have been maintaining a particular level of white supremacist attitude before 2016 but his subsequent tweets praising Trump indicating there was some effect that propelled him to be a mass killer.



Persephone29
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09 Aug 2019, 6:27 am

cyberdad wrote:
To me it's not. He might have been maintaining a particular level of white supremacist attitude before 2016 but his subsequent tweets praising Trump indicating there was some effect that propelled him to be a mass killer.



I need clarification: what exactly constitutes a white supremacist attitude?

Because if it's speaking out against lax borders, I disagree. If I crossed the Canadian border without permission, I would expect to be seized and deported. I'm white. ( I would never cross a border without permission, btw. But for the sake of argument... )

Is it telling malcontents of color to leave? If so, I disagree. The operative word is "malcontents," not color. I was a malcontent at a job once, they invited me to leave. I'm white. My husband 'unfriended' his white friend for constantly picking fights with his other friends on FB. The guy just straight up hated everything about my husband, so it seemed pointless to maintain a friendship.

Obviously, opening up in a Wal-Mart is not something I have endorsed or engaged in. But, has anyone even released the identities of these victims yet, to see if they are all brown? I know of 3 already who are white. In contrast, the OHIO shooter who was a liberal, shot an equal if not higher number of blacks. If you are a mass shooter and you take the time to see what color your victims are before you shoot them, you will not make much progress.

It just seems to me that more and more, the definition of white supremacy, is anyone who speaks out against a person of color. How can anyone claim to be a member of the human race and expect that no one will ever have a problem with them just because of race? If you're a human, someone is going to take issue with you at some point in this life. Why would you want it to be otherwise? That's equality. If you're the Queen of England and no one ever corrects you, that's not equality. That's superiority.

And that's what I think you're after, Cyberdad. You aren't after equality, you're after superiority. The very superiority you hate in the white race, that of being treated better for no other reason than the color of skin. If it no longer serves the plight of whites ( more and more, it doesn't ), it won't work for people of color.

If a white person is an azzhole, the get it. If a person of color is an azzhole, they get it. And that's the equality I'm working for and hope to see in my lifetime.


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EzraS
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09 Aug 2019, 9:01 am

cyberdad wrote:
To me it's not. He might have been maintaining a particular level of white supremacist attitude before 2016 but his subsequent tweets praising Trump indicating there was some effect that propelled him to be a mass killer.


Show me those tweets where Patrick Crusius in his own words is praising Trump.

Especially in a way that contradicts what he said in writing, that he was not influenced by Trump.



kraftiekortie
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09 Aug 2019, 9:21 am

A “white supremacist” attitude is one where white people feel people of other races are inferior to them—merely by virtue of them being “not white.”

Many mass murders have white supremacy as at least part of the ideological bent of the murderer. Many don’t.

The Dayton person was more than just a fanatical liberal. The El Paso person was more than just a fanatical American nativist.



kraftiekortie
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09 Aug 2019, 9:26 am

The El Paso guy posted a picture of the name TRUMP spelled out via various guns.



EzraS
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09 Aug 2019, 10:00 am

kraftiekortie wrote:
The El Paso guy posted a picture of the name TRUMP spelled out via various guns.


That was posted by someone calling himself "John doe @juhhhjgghk".

Image



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09 Aug 2019, 10:54 am

kraftiekortie wrote:
The Dayton person was more than just a fanatical liberal.


I don't know by what metric you think he was a liberal at all.

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jimmy m
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09 Aug 2019, 10:57 am

Shortly before Patrick Crusius murdered 22 people and injured more than two dozen in El Paso, Texas, he declared in a manifesto posted on the website 8chan that he was trying to stop a "Hispanic invasion of Texas." But there was also a distinctly environmental theme to his screed: part of a lesser-known far-right strain called eco-fascism.

The El Paso shooter named his manifesto "An Inconvenient Truth," presumably after Al Gore's 2006 climate change documentary. "The decimation of the environment is creating a massive burden for future generations. Corporations are heading the destruction of our environment by shamelessly overharvesting resources," he wrote. "If we can get rid of enough people, then our way of life can be more sustainable." He also blamed America's consumer culture for environmental damage.

Crusius also claimed that he was inspired by the shooter in Christchurch, New Zealand, who killed 51 people at two mosques and, in his own rambling manifesto, referred to himself as an "eco-fascist." He described immigration as "environmental warfare," and claimed "there is no nationalism without environmentalism."

The shootings in both El Paso and Christchurch, New Zealand are the latest examples of a new kind of ecoterrorism. According to the FBI, ecoterrorism is "the use or threatened use of violence of a criminal nature against innocent victims or property by an environmentally-oriented, subnational group for environmental-political reasons, or aimed at an audience beyond the target, often of a symbolic nature." For many, this likely evokes the image of tree-huggers with bolt-cutters, like the Animal Liberation Front which started breaking into animal testing labs in the '80s, releasing test subjects and destroying equipment.

But eco-fascism is not the fringe hippie movement usually associated with ecoterrorism. It's a belief that the only way to deal with climate change is through eugenics and the brutal suppression of migrants. The movement's founding father was Madison Grant, who started the first organizations dedicated to protecting California redwoods and American buffalo. He was also a staunch supporter of race science who, as president of the Bronx Zoo, put Ota Benga, a member of the Mbuti tribe kidnapped from Congo, on display in a cage with apes in 1906. He published The Passing of the Great Race, or The Racial Basis of European History in 1916, warning of the decline of the "Nordic" race, and wrote elsewhere that his generation had "the responsibility of saying what forms of life shall be preserved." His racial theory inspired Anders Breivik, the man who massacred 77 people at a Norwegian youth camp in 2011. But his fusion of white supremacy and environmental conservation also lingers.

Eco-fascism relies heavily on a concept called "deep ecology," the idea that the only way to preserve life on Earth is to dramatically—forcefully, if necessary—reduce the human population. It's best summed up by "lifeboat ethics," as eco-fascist and radical ecologist Pentti Linkola put it: "When the lifeboat is full, those who hate life will try to load it with more people and sink the lot. Those who love and respect life will take the ship’s axe and sever the extra hands that cling to the sides."

Eco-fascists today believe that the size of the human population is not only putting a strain on natural resources, but also that masses of displaced people will be a threat to state and cultural stability in a seemingly inevitable post-climate change world. Like more garden variety white nationalists, they believe that allowing migrants into the U.S., or other "white" nations, is suicide. Or, to borrow a phrase that crops up in far-right memes and neo-Nazi website The Daily Stormer, "Save trees, not refugees." Writing for the New Statesman in 2018, Sarah Manavis described eco-fascism as growing online community awash with tree and mountain emojis, plus runic symbols taken from Heinrich Himmler's SS, the Nazi Party's paramilitary organization. The umbrella term "eco-fascism" covers a lot of different ideas, but Manavis found some consistent themes, including "veganism, anti-multiculturalism, white nationalism, anti-single-use plastic, anti-Semitism, and, almost always, a passionate interest in Norse mythology."

Source: What Is Eco-Fascism, the Ideology Behind Attacks in El Paso and Christchurch?



kraftiekortie
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09 Aug 2019, 11:21 am

Yep. That makes sense.

Usually, environmentalism is associated with American-styled “liberalism” which many people of conservative bent think ill of.

But it would be folly to believe that eco-fascism is “liberal.”



Persephone29
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09 Aug 2019, 12:00 pm

So, both the El Paso and the Christchurch shooters went to locations where they knew the demographic would be darker skin people, but both locations also held light skinned people. Some whites were killed in El Paso, some white Muslims were present at the Christchurch mosque shooting, but none were hit.

The Ohio shooter was an Elizabeth Warren supporter who aimed at everyone, but specifically his sister and her boy friend.

The El Paso shooter had been resentful of what he perceived as an invasion of his State and felt he must act, those who read the manifesto feel that he was emboldened to act because Trump was in office.

Many would argue that the police attacks, set ups, riots, etc... felt emboldened while Obama was in office.

What I think is a common theme is that racism exists on both sides and some defect of character makes these people believe they are well within their rights to settle a score. As long as scores are being settled for past atrocities, there will be no peace. As long as one race is favored over another there will be no peace. Until everyone is held to the same standards across the board there will be no peace.

Time for a clean slate folks. One where laws, sentences, assistance, opportunity is exactly the same, regardless of the past. As long as people want to be superior to make up for all the inferior, these nuts are going to keep coming out of the woodwork. They will always exist, but maybe less in number.


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kraftiekortie
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09 Aug 2019, 1:19 pm

I don't disagree with you there.....that's what I want, too.

I believe things like "affirmative action" should be remnants of a past where there was overt, shameless racism.

But there are still many entities which DO discriminate against "people of color"----especially in terms of housing and employment.

The "housing" component is much more blatant and evident than the "employment" component.

Though de facto racism like the above is on the decline, it still exists.



Persephone29
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10 Aug 2019, 12:44 am

kraftiekortie wrote:
I don't disagree with you there.....that's what I want, too.

I believe things like "affirmative action" should be remnants of a past where there was overt, shameless racism.

But there are still many entities which DO discriminate against "people of color"----especially in terms of housing and employment.

The "housing" component is much more blatant and evident than the "employment" component.

Though de facto racism like the above is on the decline, it still exists.


I can see that, kraftiekortie.

So, the next question would be why? Why does discrimination is housing exist? I don't have much experience in a congested city, my experience is of suburbs (relatively rural ones, at that). Our little city is coastal, with lots of surrounding countryside to the West, Intercoastal and Atlantic to the East. Where I live there's a healthy balance of all races represented, yet there is a bit (more than a bit actually) of discernment used when renting to all, including whites because they are redneck whites. Redneck whites bring screaming, fighting, trash everywhere, they don't mow the lawn, the cops come, kids roaming in filthy diapers, etc... And I think that every property owner would like to preserve the value of their investment.

I know that for myself, I don't care what color my neighbor is as long as they are clean and quite.

So, I don't know what it takes to determine who will be a good renter. My guess is that past experience influences who gets chosen to live where. How could we make that better? Keeping in mind that it can be a long and expensive process to get rid of a nightmare tenant. If it weren't such an ordeal to get a renter out, that might help with housing discrimination. But because the laws protect the renter and not the property owner, the property owner discriminates on the front end to mitigate the expenses on the back end, should the renter be a nightmare.

Laws need to change and I think things would be more fair, less discriminatory.


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cyberdad
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10 Aug 2019, 12:57 am

Persephone29 wrote:
And that's what I think you're after, Cyberdad. You aren't after equality, you're after superiority. The very superiority you hate in the white race, that of being treated better for no other reason than the color of skin. If it no longer serves the plight of whites ( more and more, it doesn't ), it won't work for people of color.


If you read Jimmy M's post it clearly it states the eco-fascist view is to cleanse white countries (like the ones we live in) of non-whites to preserve both the pristine environment and white homogeneity.

If this involves wacked out dudes targeting mass civilian deaths in places where non-white frequent I think that's got nothing to do with anybodies superiority, it means there's home grown terrorism that's being ignored.



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10 Aug 2019, 1:14 am

cyberdad wrote:
Persephone29 wrote:
And that's what I think you're after, Cyberdad. You aren't after equality, you're after superiority. The very superiority you hate in the white race, that of being treated better for no other reason than the color of skin. If it no longer serves the plight of whites ( more and more, it doesn't ), it won't work for people of color.


If you read Jimmy M's post it clearly it states the eco-fascist view is to cleanse white countries (like the ones we live in) of non-whites to preserve both the pristine environment and white homogeneity.

If this involves wacked out dudes targeting mass civilian deaths in places where non-white frequent I think that's got nothing to do with anybodies superiority, it means home there's home grown terrorism that's being ignored.


Okay, I agree. But how do we categorize home grown terrorism where there's no particular race targeted, like the Ohio shooter? These shooters all have two things in common, the desire to kill and a lack of the moral dilemma of killing. How does that happen? Are they born that way, is it created under just the right circumstances? I only have what goes on inside my head/heart as a reference, the thought of killing an innocent man, woman, child fills my soul with dread. The only emotion that could overcome that would be fear for my life, or the life of someone I loved. These people were not an imminent threat to existence. So, how did these individuals overcome (if they ever possessed it) the moral dilemma of killing that most people possess?

It will never happen in the near future. But just as the FBI has a behavioral unit, someone needs to introduce some sort of systematic testing into the homes and DNA of these families. Then, start keeping track of similarities. As it stands now, the families just say, "we don't know what happened, he was such a good kid." And I say bullshit. There were signs, they chose to ignore them. Start holding families of origin responsible too, especially until we have more science to understand.


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10 Aug 2019, 1:17 am

kraftiekortie wrote:
A “white supremacist” attitude is one where white people feel people of other races are inferior to them—merely by virtue of them being “not white.”

Many mass murders have white supremacy as at least part of the ideological bent of the murderer. Many don’t.

The Dayton person was more than just a fanatical liberal. The El Paso person was more than just a fanatical American nativist.



From what I understand he had complaints about 'race mixing' which is a pretty obvious racial supremacist view, in this case white supremacist.


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