The mindset behind trickle down economics in the US

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Antrax
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10 Aug 2019, 2:40 pm

Sweetleaf wrote:
Mostly trickle down is BS because the people who are expected to allow wealth to trickle down hide it all in foreign bank accounts. You see the uber wealthy elites are beyond human responsibility, they shouldn't pay taxes or contribute to the economy they should hoard all their money and pass it on to their groomed children who never have worked a day of hard labor. And then have the audacity to pretend those well groomed children are more valuble than people who make their money doing actual labor.


You really don't get it. Wealthy elites don't hoard money, they invest it. Why let your fortune shrink when instead it can grow. Invested money is directly funneled into the economy.


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10 Aug 2019, 2:42 pm

Antrax wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
Mostly trickle down is BS because the people who are expected to allow wealth to trickle down hide it all in foreign bank accounts. You see the uber wealthy elites are beyond human responsibility, they shouldn't pay taxes or contribute to the economy they should hoard all their money and pass it on to their groomed children who never have worked a day of hard labor. And then have the audacity to pretend those well groomed children are more valuble than people who make their money doing actual labor.


You really don't get it. Wealthy elites don't hoard money, they invest it. Why let your fortune shrink when instead it can grow. Invested money is directly funneled into the economy.

What you state is not fact, it's opinion and it ignores a 50 year trend of the middle class needing more labor hours necessary to sustain their quality of life.



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10 Aug 2019, 3:03 pm

Roboto wrote:
Antrax wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
Mostly trickle down is BS because the people who are expected to allow wealth to trickle down hide it all in foreign bank accounts. You see the uber wealthy elites are beyond human responsibility, they shouldn't pay taxes or contribute to the economy they should hoard all their money and pass it on to their groomed children who never have worked a day of hard labor. And then have the audacity to pretend those well groomed children are more valuble than people who make their money doing actual labor.


You really don't get it. Wealthy elites don't hoard money, they invest it. Why let your fortune shrink when instead it can grow. Invested money is directly funneled into the economy.

What you state is not fact, it's opinion and it ignores a 50 year trend of the middle class needing more labor hours necessary to sustain their quality of life.

People invest to make profit, not to provide for the middle class.

Smart money helps close down American manufacturing and moves it overseas.

Likely, more profit to be made.


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Antrax
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10 Aug 2019, 3:21 pm

Roboto wrote:
Antrax wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
Mostly trickle down is BS because the people who are expected to allow wealth to trickle down hide it all in foreign bank accounts. You see the uber wealthy elites are beyond human responsibility, they shouldn't pay taxes or contribute to the economy they should hoard all their money and pass it on to their groomed children who never have worked a day of hard labor. And then have the audacity to pretend those well groomed children are more valuble than people who make their money doing actual labor.


You really don't get it. Wealthy elites don't hoard money, they invest it. Why let your fortune shrink when instead it can grow. Invested money is directly funneled into the economy.

What you state is not fact, it's opinion and it ignores a 50 year trend of the middle class needing more labor hours necessary to sustain their quality of life.


I'm really starting to get upset here. I have repeatedly cited reliable statistics from the US census and CBO demonstrating how the middle class makes 26% more in inflation adjusted income and 44% more when adjusted for household size than 40 years ago. I have cited the doubling of tax receipts by millionaires from 2003 to 2006 following the Bush-era tax cuts. You want evidence that most wealth of wealthy individuals is invested http://movies2.nytimes.com/books/first/ ... naire.html.

NY Times wrote:
[Millionaires] hold nearly 20 percent of our household's wealth in transaction securities such as publicly traded stocks and mutual funds. But we rarely sell our equity investments. We hold even more in our pension plans. On average, 21 percent of our household's wealth is in our private businesses.


Do the math: 20% + 21%= at least 41% invested in either transaction securities and private businesses. From the average home value is 320,000. The average wealth of a millionaire from the same source is 1.6 million. 97% own their homes. That's an additional 19%. So on average at least 60% of american millionaire wealth is invested at least at the time of the writing of the book chapter.

No one arguing the other side has provided any facts except that income inequality has grown.

Instead they have argued on rhetoric that:
1) The wealthy hoard wealth (untrue)
2) tax cuts do nothing for the economy (mostly untrue)
3) The wealthy are unworthy of their wealth because they don't work a hard labor job. (value judgment that can be debated)

When you say I post nothing but opinion. Kindly [Redacted] off!


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10 Aug 2019, 3:56 pm

LoveNotHate wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Because poor people are without extra income, they hardly have enough to invest or even save anything after buying the essentials. And even if they do spend money on "vices" like alcohol or Tabasco, or just entertainment, who can fault them for wanting to have a little happiness in their lives?

Then they will stay poor forever and work until they die.

Pretty sad, it's like playing the "GAME OF LIFE" and ending up in the "Poor house"
Image


Or the government can step in to raise wages and make sure that benefits are provided.
Most people seriously don't want to be rich, just to live comfortably and without worry. That's the real American dream.


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10 Aug 2019, 4:44 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
Or the government can step in to raise wages and make sure that benefits are provided.
Most people seriously don't want to be rich, just to live comfortably and without worry. That's the real American dream.

The government can't mandate worker productivity (e.g., some people may have disabilities).

So, Democrats and Republicans will never do that.


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Kraichgauer
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10 Aug 2019, 5:30 pm

LoveNotHate wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Or the government can step in to raise wages and make sure that benefits are provided.
Most people seriously don't want to be rich, just to live comfortably and without worry. That's the real American dream.

The government can't mandate worker productivity (e.g., some people may have disabilities).

So, Democrats and Republicans will never do that.


I don't follow your train of thought. Workers, disabled or not, will have more buying power and thus everyone's piece of the pie will grow. In the end, it's not work productivity but buying power that drives the economy in my limited understanding of economics.


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Antrax
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10 Aug 2019, 5:48 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
LoveNotHate wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Or the government can step in to raise wages and make sure that benefits are provided.
Most people seriously don't want to be rich, just to live comfortably and without worry. That's the real American dream.

The government can't mandate worker productivity (e.g., some people may have disabilities).

So, Democrats and Republicans will never do that.


I don't follow your train of thought. Workers, disabled or not, will have more buying power and thus everyone's piece of the pie will grow. In the end, it's not work productivity but buying power that drives the economy in my limited understanding of economics.


I can see how you would come to believe that, but it's actually backwards. Buying power comes from productivity. Increased productivity decreases costs which decreases prices. Decreased prices result in increased buying power.


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LoveNotHate
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10 Aug 2019, 5:53 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
LoveNotHate wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Or the government can step in to raise wages and make sure that benefits are provided.
Most people seriously don't want to be rich, just to live comfortably and without worry. That's the real American dream.

The government can't mandate worker productivity (e.g., some people may have disabilities).

So, Democrats and Republicans will never do that.


I don't follow your train of thought. Workers, disabled or not, will have more buying power and thus everyone's piece of the pie will grow. In the end, it's not work productivity but buying power that drives the economy in my limited understanding of economics.

Businesses hire people because they think it will help them increase profits.

A government unfunded mandate like the minimum wage, may make workers not worth hiring, because the business can't profit off them.

So, Democrats and Republicans will never push mandated compensation up that high.


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10 Aug 2019, 5:54 pm

LoveNotHate wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Or the government can step in to raise wages and make sure that benefits are provided.
Most people seriously don't want to be rich, just to live comfortably and without worry. That's the real American dream.

The government can't mandate worker productivity (e.g., some people may have disabilities).

So, Democrats and Republicans will never do that.


What I'm struggling to understand is, you've stated before that you were in the military, and put yourself through college using the Post 9-11 GI Bill.

These are government programs where money is taken from people, without their consent, and reallocated to you. Please explain why you needed to rely on a government program to elevate yourself if the "free market" is so great.


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LoveNotHate
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10 Aug 2019, 6:04 pm

XFilesGeek wrote:
LoveNotHate wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Or the government can step in to raise wages and make sure that benefits are provided.
Most people seriously don't want to be rich, just to live comfortably and without worry. That's the real American dream.

The government can't mandate worker productivity (e.g., some people may have disabilities).

So, Democrats and Republicans will never do that.


What I'm struggling to understand is, you've stated before that you were in the military, and put yourself through college using the Post 9-11 GI Bill.

These are government programs where money is taken from people, without their consent, and reallocated to you. Please explain why you needed to rely on a government program to elevate yourself if the "free market" is so great.

I am all for exploiting government programs.

A good capitalist doesn't look a gift horse in the mouth. They find ways for government to build their football stadiums, commercial developments, get "corporate welfare" ….

I strategize on may taxes to maximize my gains.

I find ways for other people to avoid taxes such as opening standard IRAs.

When markets that are not free, expect there to be winners and losers, the winners will likely be the people who can exploit the system.

Image


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Antrax
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10 Aug 2019, 6:22 pm

XFilesGeek wrote:
LoveNotHate wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Or the government can step in to raise wages and make sure that benefits are provided.
Most people seriously don't want to be rich, just to live comfortably and without worry. That's the real American dream.

The government can't mandate worker productivity (e.g., some people may have disabilities).

So, Democrats and Republicans will never do that.


What I'm struggling to understand is, you've stated before that you were in the military, and put yourself through college using the Post 9-11 GI Bill.

These are government programs where money is taken from people, without their consent, and reallocated to you. Please explain why you needed to rely on a government program to elevate yourself if the "free market" is so great.


So the counter question here? If the government GI Bill is so great for getting a college education why do millions of students use the free market solution of taking out loans, and going into debt instead?


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XFilesGeek
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10 Aug 2019, 6:34 pm

LoveNotHate wrote:
XFilesGeek wrote:
LoveNotHate wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Or the government can step in to raise wages and make sure that benefits are provided.
Most people seriously don't want to be rich, just to live comfortably and without worry. That's the real American dream.

The government can't mandate worker productivity (e.g., some people may have disabilities).

So, Democrats and Republicans will never do that.


What I'm struggling to understand is, you've stated before that you were in the military, and put yourself through college using the Post 9-11 GI Bill.

These are government programs where money is taken from people, without their consent, and reallocated to you. Please explain why you needed to rely on a government program to elevate yourself if the "free market" is so great.

I am all for exploiting government programs.

A good capitalist doesn't look a gift horse in the mouth. They find ways for government to build their football stadiums, commercial developments, get "corporate welfare" ….

I strategize on may taxes to maximize my gains.

I find ways for other people to avoid taxes such as opening standard IRAs.

When markets that are not free, expect there to be winners and losers, the winners will likely be the people who can exploit the system.

Image


In other words, you're fine with the government taking money from people and giving it to you, but not the government taking your money and giving it to other people.


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10 Aug 2019, 6:35 pm

Antrax wrote:
XFilesGeek wrote:
LoveNotHate wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Or the government can step in to raise wages and make sure that benefits are provided.
Most people seriously don't want to be rich, just to live comfortably and without worry. That's the real American dream.

The government can't mandate worker productivity (e.g., some people may have disabilities).

So, Democrats and Republicans will never do that.


What I'm struggling to understand is, you've stated before that you were in the military, and put yourself through college using the Post 9-11 GI Bill.

These are government programs where money is taken from people, without their consent, and reallocated to you. Please explain why you needed to rely on a government program to elevate yourself if the "free market" is so great.


So the counter question here? If the government GI Bill is so great for getting a college education why do millions of students use the free market solution of taking out loans, and going into debt instead?


Probably because you'd have to go into the military, which is what the GI Bill is for.

So why don't more people go into the military?

Well, 71% of young people are unqualified to go into the military, according to a report this year:

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nat ... 665840002/

In addition, people might have other reasons not to go into the military.


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XFilesGeek
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10 Aug 2019, 6:37 pm

Antrax wrote:
XFilesGeek wrote:
LoveNotHate wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Or the government can step in to raise wages and make sure that benefits are provided.
Most people seriously don't want to be rich, just to live comfortably and without worry. That's the real American dream.

The government can't mandate worker productivity (e.g., some people may have disabilities).

So, Democrats and Republicans will never do that.


What I'm struggling to understand is, you've stated before that you were in the military, and put yourself through college using the Post 9-11 GI Bill.

These are government programs where money is taken from people, without their consent, and reallocated to you. Please explain why you needed to rely on a government program to elevate yourself if the "free market" is so great.


So the counter question here? If the government GI Bill is so great for getting a college education why do millions of students use the free market solution of taking out loans, and going into debt instead?


Because getting the Post 9-11 GI Bill involves committing yourself to the military for a number of years and allowing them to order you to go die if the situation calls for it.


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10 Aug 2019, 6:41 pm

Truthfully, I was in the military because my step dad kicked me out when I was 17, and I was low IQ, and not functioning well.

He would put military mail in my room as suggestions that I needed to leave.

In the military I was a failure, and many people made fun of me because of perceived low IQ. They made marching chants making fun of me ... "lost in the sauce".


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