Autistic women x2 likely toattempt suicide than autistic men

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Misslizard
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08 Aug 2019, 8:55 pm

naturalplastic wrote:
Could be peaches to pears.

Maybe women have to be MORE autistic then their male counterparts in order to be recognized as being autistic in the first place. Have to stand out more. The system does seem to miss females.

So in comparing the two groups youre comparing minorly impaired men to majorly impaired women.

So true,women on the spectrum are more likely to be misdiagnosed then men.Supposedly we are better at “passing” and posing as NT.It is exhausting, keeping from visibly stimming,trying to maintain eye contact,trying to appear interested,and talking when you just want to be quiet.


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09 Aug 2019, 12:51 am

Borromeo wrote:
Pshaw! not an extended period, I hope. Only a quarter of all living days, the formative years of adolescence, and only recently have I managed to evict the Angel of Death from the front-parlor of my soul. I've been doing this:...

(Deleted to stop text pyramids)


You sound like a very intelligent man, who has been through a lot. I'm really glad you managed to move out from such an abusive family. Well done.



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09 Aug 2019, 1:07 am

Borromeo wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
Borromeo wrote:
Poor girls--they mask better than men do, but appear to suffer for it.

Men are better at killing themselves (it could hardly be called success) usually because they tend to use guns and other weapons a lot. Women often overdose or use knives.

I wouldn't recommend any of them. Life is too precious, sacred even, to snuff out due to circumstance.


Perhaps you haven't dealt with being suicidal for an extended period. Life is just that period of suffering in between not existing and not existing.


Pshaw! not an extended period, I hope. Only a quarter of all living days, the formative years of adolescence, and only recently have I managed to evict the Angel of Death from the front-parlor of my soul. I've been doing this:

Surviving the days I distrusted family so much I hid iron bars behind the furniture, figured out how to block the door to my room, and made plans to run away disabling the telephone and the automobile to defy pursuit,

the day I survived an attempted murder by some random guy

time and time again I understood what psychological manipulation actually looks like in myself and in other people, how it warps you, twists you, even, into something entirely false: how I learned to trust in free will, especially my own, and in right and wrong.

Living with the day I ended up vomiting in Midnight Mass on Christmas Day because of stress.

"You live in the past! You're fake! I want my son back!" Thanks a million, Dad.

The days I scaled balconies in the dead of night just to find some fun, some relief.

The times people called me out for "Resting B---h Face" when I was trying to see them.

The state of mind that makes you blow your nose on your socks because you don't want to trouble them for a tissue and you can't find a handkerchief anywhere.

How about all the times you try to create things and hear "artists are sissies," "you live in a fantasy world and that's evil," "real men don't (wholesome activity)."

Emotions other than rage and a jovial bonhomie were considered suspect.

And one day I took my shotgun and looked down the barrel and pulled the trigger just to hear the click, (it wasn't loaded) as a way of acting out, seeking some temporary relief. If I weren't Catholic I would have loaded it before I pulled the trigger.

Days I got yelled at for being up at midnight reading Shakespeare's [I]Hamlet.


Days I learned to hide anything I really enjoyed.

Days I tried to go to my mother about the emotional abuse (though I knew not what to call it) and was told "you're trying to drive a wedge in your family because you hate your father."

The day I called out my father on his political hysterics and he pinned me to the back wall of the bathroom as I was going in to get a shower. He later manipulated me into sympathizing with his sorry @$$ when I went to go get a pocket knife because I didn't know if he was still volatile...because he'd lost the country he grew up with, boo-hoo-hoo. No, I don't support that decision either, but I think America is better served by rational citizens, by conservatives instead of reactionaries. (he won't hear a word to this day about the arguments for or against global warming, preferring the tactics of the ostrich.)

The words I heard when I left the house for the first time, at the age of seventeen: "It's three in the morning and you're still up? You're an idiot!" What a way to remember my family.

The constant pressure from friends & family to stop "hoarding" antiques (when the rest of the house is full of their miscellanea) because it's "impractical." Excuse me? I'd live like a 24/7 reenactment if I had a chance, partly as a rebellion and partly to seek a sensory space.

The day I refused to join in a screening of The Shawshank Redemption because of some scenes in it and got told "you need to quit being so rigid with this morality stuff." Friend, I was in training to become a Catholic priest at that time, and would like to know whether we are allowed preferences that don't include prison buggery in the photoplays. Perhaps we could watch something else? Or perhaps have a normal conversation for a change?

I regret the sentence fragments and the wall of text. Perhaps they will serve for some notice that even fairly jolly people can have had a dark time, or quite a bit of dark time, in their life.

Depression warps the mental faculties and I would not think that anupme who acts on a decision in a depressed state is acting logically. They need healing, not to be aided and abetted.
[/i]


Ah, and the luxury of creative definitions, too. Life is actually "the condition that distinguishes active animals and plants from inorganic matter, including the capacity for growth, functional activity, and continual change preceding death." (Oxford English Dictionary.) I think it's worth living for its own sake.


I'm so sorry you had to go through that. I really am.

The difference between your description and what drives someone to suicide isn't always environmental factors that lead to depression. Depression for people like me is because that's just how I'm wired. I remember being six years old and feeling sad when the awareness that I existed would hit me. My childhood wasn't bad at that time. I experienced abuse and trauma at various parts of my life but depression was there despite that (although trauma certainly didn't help).
I have a stable life now and I still struggle with depression and even suicidal ideation at times. Fixing my life didn't fix me. Mental illness isn't happening to me because of anything. It's just *me*. I'd do just about anything to get rid of it though.


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funeralxempire
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09 Aug 2019, 1:18 am

Borromeo wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
Borromeo wrote:
Poor girls--they mask better than men do, but appear to suffer for it.

Men are better at killing themselves (it could hardly be called success) usually because they tend to use guns and other weapons a lot. Women often overdose or use knives.

I wouldn't recommend any of them. Life is too precious, sacred even, to snuff out due to circumstance.


Perhaps you haven't dealt with being suicidal for an extended period. Life is just that period of suffering in between not existing and not existing.


Pshaw! not an extended period, I hope. Only a quarter of all living days, the formative years of adolescence, and only recently have I managed to evict the Angel of Death from the front-parlor of my soul. I've been doing this:

Surviving the days I distrusted family so much I hid iron bars behind the furniture, figured out how to block the door to my room, and made plans to run away disabling the telephone and the automobile to defy pursuit,

the day I survived an attempted murder by some random guy

time and time again I understood what psychological manipulation actually looks like in myself and in other people, how it warps you, twists you, even, into something entirely false: how I learned to trust in free will, especially my own, and in right and wrong.

Living with the day I ended up vomiting in Midnight Mass on Christmas Day because of stress.

"You live in the past! You're fake! I want my son back!" Thanks a million, Dad.

The days I scaled balconies in the dead of night just to find some fun, some relief.

The times people called me out for "Resting B---h Face" when I was trying to see them.

The state of mind that makes you blow your nose on your socks because you don't want to trouble them for a tissue and you can't find a handkerchief anywhere.

How about all the times you try to create things and hear "artists are sissies," "you live in a fantasy world and that's evil," "real men don't (wholesome activity)."

Emotions other than rage and a jovial bonhomie were considered suspect.

And one day I took my shotgun and looked down the barrel and pulled the trigger just to hear the click, (it wasn't loaded) as a way of acting out, seeking some temporary relief. If I weren't Catholic I would have loaded it before I pulled the trigger.

Days I got yelled at for being up at midnight reading Shakespeare's [I]Hamlet.


Days I learned to hide anything I really enjoyed.

Days I tried to go to my mother about the emotional abuse (though I knew not what to call it) and was told "you're trying to drive a wedge in your family because you hate your father."

The day I called out my father on his political hysterics and he pinned me to the back wall of the bathroom as I was going in to get a shower. He later manipulated me into sympathizing with his sorry @$$ when I went to go get a pocket knife because I didn't know if he was still volatile...because he'd lost the country he grew up with, boo-hoo-hoo. No, I don't support that decision either, but I think America is better served by rational citizens, by conservatives instead of reactionaries. (he won't hear a word to this day about the arguments for or against global warming, preferring the tactics of the ostrich.)

The words I heard when I left the house for the first time, at the age of seventeen: "It's three in the morning and you're still up? You're an idiot!" What a way to remember my family.

The constant pressure from friends & family to stop "hoarding" antiques (when the rest of the house is full of their miscellanea) because it's "impractical." Excuse me? I'd live like a 24/7 reenactment if I had a chance, partly as a rebellion and partly to seek a sensory space.

The day I refused to join in a screening of The Shawshank Redemption because of some scenes in it and got told "you need to quit being so rigid with this morality stuff." Friend, I was in training to become a Catholic priest at that time, and would like to know whether we are allowed preferences that don't include prison buggery in the photoplays. Perhaps we could watch something else? Or perhaps have a normal conversation for a change?

I regret the sentence fragments and the wall of text. Perhaps they will serve for some notice that even fairly jolly people can have had a dark time, or quite a bit of dark time, in their life.

Depression warps the mental faculties and I would not think that anupme who acts on a decision in a depressed state is acting logically. They need healing, not to be aided and abetted.
[/i]


Ah, and the luxury of creative definitions, too. Life is actually "the condition that distinguishes active animals and plants from inorganic matter, including the capacity for growth, functional activity, and continual change preceding death." (Oxford English Dictionary.) I think it's worth living for its own sake.


I'm sorry that was your experience, it must have been miserable. That said, you seem to miss my point. Being miserable because your circumstance is misery isn't the same as being internally miserable no matter what happens. I'm glad you're not forced to deal with depression with an internal cause on a daily basis like I do. I'm glad you could fix the external causes you faced. Unfortunately my internal causes can't be corrected so don't try to lecture like you can relate to what you admit you don't and haven't experienced.


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09 Aug 2019, 7:54 pm

Wow. Just wow.

Martianprincess, funeralxempire, I had no idea that it could work that way. How naive of me & probably insensitive as well. Hang in there.
Funeralxempire, sorry it came off like a lecture. I tend to flippancy (which is a particularly rude thing, and what's worse, intentionally so in most cases.) It really didn't make sense to me...now it does. Reading your paragraphs about what it's really like makes part of me say "Well! Enough internet for the night. Put out that lamp and go to sleep!" Just went "oh, extended period..." but didn't exactly take into account that it could be "entire life long."

I'm anti-drug as they come, but posts like yours make me wonder if there's psychological healing in marijuana or LSD.

So the brain of a chronically depressed person is wired differently than the brain of a regular old person with depression. I wouldn't have guessed it but it does seem like it makes sense, considering how AS works with the internal circuitry of the brain. (I tend to think of brains as having a fairly mechanistic structure. Perhaps that's not good, but it seems to make sense. I can about hack my brain with simple tricks, like doing a computer. Maybe it's my brain that's messed up.)

That sounds like a really tough existence all the way through. How did it start--as in, when did it get noticed? Surely babies in the cradle don't show it--or do they?

Oh well, I'll be researching that.


Smudge--no, they're not malicious. In fact my father (architect of most of it except for the RBF insults & the attempted murder) is probably autistic himself and perhaps a little more than me. He's like me before diagnosis--absolutely oblivious to it. But he was the greatest Dad that baby Me could have had, and...have you ever seen Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade? Remember the scene on the zeppelin? I think I'm "old enough to be interesting." Plus, even when someone is callous or whatever, it still doesn't always imply that they aren't able to change. Which he did. I changed too.

And I move out (again) in literally a week, driving the old car that I've been fixing up. Hope it makes it. I have a long way to go and don't want to be stuck on the side of the road again.


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martianprincess
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09 Aug 2019, 8:46 pm

Borromeo wrote:
Wow. Just wow.

Martianprincess, funeralxempire, I had no idea that it could work that way. How naive of me & probably insensitive as well. Hang in there.
Funeralxempire, sorry it came off like a lecture. I tend to flippancy (which is a particularly rude thing, and what's worse, intentionally so in most cases.) It really didn't make sense to me...now it does. Reading your paragraphs about what it's really like makes part of me say "Well! Enough internet for the night. Put out that lamp and go to sleep!" Just went "oh, extended period..." but didn't exactly take into account that it could be "entire life long."

I'm anti-drug as they come, but posts like yours make me wonder if there's psychological healing in marijuana or LSD.

So the brain of a chronically depressed person is wired differently than the brain of a regular old person with depression. I wouldn't have guessed it but it does seem like it makes sense, considering how AS works with the internal circuitry of the brain. (I tend to think of brains as having a fairly mechanistic structure. Perhaps that's not good, but it seems to make sense. I can about hack my brain with simple tricks, like doing a computer. Maybe it's my brain that's messed up.)

That sounds like a really tough existence all the way through. How did it start--as in, when did it get noticed? Surely babies in the cradle don't show it--or do they?

Oh well, I'll be researching that.


I don't expect people to just automatically know things or share my point of view if they haven't been exposed to it. I love that you read my post and funeralxempire's post and took the time to consider our stories. I appreciate that and it's rare that people do that. :)

I am not sure if babies can exhibit depression symptoms. I know in some ways they can display anxiety-like symptoms; for example, babies can become overstimulated pretty easily, even if they are NT and they cry and are not easy to console because their bodies are reacting to stress.

Sometimes if babies and young children are exposed to stressful situations for prolonged periods of time (such as abuse or neglect) it permanently affects their brains and nervous system activation, consequently. Anxiety, depression, aggression, etc. can manifest later in life from early childhood experiences. This is an environmental factor though. Another environmental factor includes pregnancy (what happens during pregnancy can have long lasting implications).

It's complicated, I imagine.

So in my case it could very well be some sort of genetic and environmental influence. However, it's not directly environmental, since I've had depression symptoms since childhood and it didn't start from stressful situations. I'm just as baffled as you are. :( I haven't done too much reading about depression though, admittedly.


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09 Aug 2019, 11:37 pm

Borromeo wrote:
Wow. Just wow.

Martianprincess, funeralxempire, I had no idea that it could work that way. How naive of me & probably insensitive as well. Hang in there.
Funeralxempire, sorry it came off like a lecture. I tend to flippancy (which is a particularly rude thing, and what's worse, intentionally so in most cases.) It really didn't make sense to me...now it does. Reading your paragraphs about what it's really like makes part of me say "Well! Enough internet for the night. Put out that lamp and go to sleep!" Just went "oh, extended period..." but didn't exactly take into account that it could be "entire life long."

I'm anti-drug as they come, but posts like yours make me wonder if there's psychological healing in marijuana or LSD.

So the brain of a chronically depressed person is wired differently than the brain of a regular old person with depression. I wouldn't have guessed it but it does seem like it makes sense, considering how AS works with the internal circuitry of the brain. (I tend to think of brains as having a fairly mechanistic structure. Perhaps that's not good, but it seems to make sense. I can about hack my brain with simple tricks, like doing a computer. Maybe it's my brain that's messed up.)

That sounds like a really tough existence all the way through. How did it start--as in, when did it get noticed? Surely babies in the cradle don't show it--or do they?

Oh well, I'll be researching that.

...

And I move out (again) in literally a week, driving the old car that I've been fixing up. Hope it makes it. I have a long way to go and don't want to be stuck on the side of the road again.



Basically I've dealt with depression as far back as I can remember, so maybe not from the cradle, but my earliest memories are related to it.

On a better note, what kind of car is it? :mrgreen:


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09 Aug 2019, 11:45 pm

sly279 wrote:
Except men kill them selves way more then women.

It is a little questionable when for men in general, they are more likely to kill themselves anyway.



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09 Aug 2019, 11:54 pm

Well you can feel like sh*t when you have no idea what the hell is wrong with you.

So you think everyone and the world is better off if you don't exist anymore....its not rational but people can get to that point.


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10 Aug 2019, 12:15 am

Misslizard wrote:
naturalplastic wrote:
Could be peaches to pears.

Maybe women have to be MORE autistic then their male counterparts in order to be recognized as being autistic in the first place. Have to stand out more. The system does seem to miss females.

So in comparing the two groups youre comparing minorly impaired men to majorly impaired women.

So true,women on the spectrum are more likely to be misdiagnosed then men.Supposedly we are better at “passing” and posing as NT.It is exhausting, keeping from visibly stimming,trying to maintain eye contact,trying to appear interested,and talking when you just want to be quiet.

But then again, I would like to be able to "pass" better anyway.
I'm not putting your post down, I'm saying there are other people who gone through a different experience.



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10 Aug 2019, 7:05 am

Hollywood_Guy wrote:
sly279 wrote:
Except men kill them selves way more then women.

It is a little questionable when for men in general, they are more likely to kill themselves anyway.

To further generalize: Men are more likely to kill. Women suffer.
(a whole separate topic there on nature/nurture)



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10 Aug 2019, 8:48 am

martianprincess wrote:
So in my case it could very well be some sort of genetic and environmental influence. However, it's not directly environmental, since I've had depression symptoms since childhood and it didn't start from stressful situations. I'm just as baffled as you are. :( I haven't done too much reading about depression though, admittedly.


@martianprincess, I found out I have a genetic defect that is correlated with depression, when I was tested for an unrelated medical condition. It's a quite common one actually: MTHFR. My BFF was tested specifically for it related to her dysthymia and she also has the genetic defect. She now takes a vitamin (l-methylfolate) to compensate - and was able to lower her antidepressant meds. Just a thought.



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10 Aug 2019, 10:17 am

SharonB wrote:
martianprincess wrote:
So in my case it could very well be some sort of genetic and environmental influence. However, it's not directly environmental, since I've had depression symptoms since childhood and it didn't start from stressful situations. I'm just as baffled as you are. :( I haven't done too much reading about depression though, admittedly.


@martianprincess, I found out I have a genetic defect that is correlated with depression, when I was tested for an unrelated medical condition. It's a quite common one actually: MTHFR. My BFF was tested specifically for it related to her dysthymia and she also has the genetic defect. She now takes a vitamin (l-methylfolate) to compensate - and was able to lower her antidepressant meds. Just a thought.


Interesting! We have a panel at the clinic I work at with that gene on it. I didn't know it was correlated with depression.


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10 Aug 2019, 11:46 am

(from funeralxempire)

Basically I've dealt with depression as far back as I can remember, so maybe not from the cradle, but my earliest memories are related to it.

On a better note, what kind of car is it? :mrgreen:[/quote]


That's very interesting. Depression from your earliest memories: hmm. Never thought that was really a "thing" but I was one of those people that didn't think autism/aspergers' was a thing either until I was diagnosed & then I started seeing it everywhere.

Oddly enough, I don't remember having a lot of personality when I was small. Just mainly empathy, trying to be "nice." (I used to think, for example, that horseback riding was cruel by default. False. Most of the time horses that have been well-treated enjoy hanging out with people, it can be rather amusing sometimes.) I only became depressed as I became more aware, found the world was full of horrible things as well as beautiful, and then when I started to discover my own thing my interests diverged from what my dad & associates thought was normal and it began to go pear-shaped from there.

Like I said, I think Dad's high-functioning Autistic as well (he has some rad special interests! but doesn't do change well, I'm afraid. He reminds me of me at a certain stage.)

So that's where it came from, and I was extremely immature, so depression really swirled up to a suicidal state.

I'm kind of glad that I got the experience (even if I came close to shooting myself, which wasn't a good idea.) At least now there is something to relate to the rest of the depressed folks out there. Which is good.

And about the car? Model DX Toyota Corolla, 1996, automatic, four-cylinder. I've been doing a mechanical restoration on it. Zero to sixty in nineteen seconds, 35mpg with regular 87-octane fuel. Yes, I would really love to have an old Model T Ford or (for performance) a late-1940s Plymouth Six, but the Corolla is more than adequate and a joy to drive. It's like a go-kart with a tin roof!


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10 Aug 2019, 11:59 am

More negativity? No wonder so many people are upset instead when they get diagnosed. When I diagnosed, however, I was a bit confused at first because I'd never really heard of Asperger's before, and there really was a name for how I was other than "selfish", "behaviorally dysfunctional", and even "mildly mentally r****ded." My mom, on the other hand, looked happier than I'd seen her in weeks when she came to tell me herself and not the psychiatrist who thought they should lie and keep it a secret from me.



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10 Aug 2019, 12:59 pm

For some, diagnosis of autism can be very confusing because the words don't have a meaning to them. If all we know is the Sheldon Cooper/drooling kid on billboard/Steve Urkel versions of autism then people who hear that word might react negatively because they don't know what it is.

Personally, I was hostile to the diagnosis for about ten seconds.

My family wasn't sure what to make of it, but when they researched it with me, we ended up getting a better understanding of each other and of people in general, which worked well for all of us.

Negativity about autistic people & suicide attempts? Well, it's truly a sad thing, but simply hiding will not help the people who need help and can't get it, or want help and get called attention whores for it. Daylight disinfects, and getting the problems out into the light can help to clear them up or at least, if they cannot be swept away, help real people find healing.


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