Page 1 of 1 [ 8 posts ] 

Magna
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 21 Jun 2018
Gender: Male
Posts: 6,932

10 Aug 2019, 7:51 pm

Would Communism be able to exist as a form of governance if the country's citizenry were free to emigrate as they pleased rather than being forced to defect at the risk of imprisonment or death?

If not, why not? I hope to hear from both those who are pro and those who are con.

Why wouldn't a Communist country willingly allow emigration? It would seem to me a logical practice would be to allow those who oppose the government to leave rather than risk their efforts to subvert the success of the government.



kraftiekortie
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 4 Feb 2014
Gender: Male
Posts: 87,510
Location: Queens, NYC

12 Aug 2019, 11:28 am

These aren’t pure “communist” entities you are talking about.

They are totalitarian governments which use Marxism as their front.



Mountain Goat
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 13 May 2019
Gender: Male
Posts: 14,202
Location: .

12 Aug 2019, 12:10 pm

Communism. Good communism governments do not need to enforce a strict emmagration agenda as people generally will be happy to stay as they are. It is only when a government is not doing their jobs properly that they need to stop people leaving, as if they don't their country would not have anyone left to govern!
Communism in its purest forms is no different to democracy or a dictatorship or a monarchy... Each of the many systems out there is not bad in theory. It is more of how things pan out... Communism has the issue of inflexibility. Put it this way. If you are on the autistic spectrul communism is not for you. If you are an NT it maybe ideal!
Think communism is bad and democracy is good. For over 50 years both in the USA, Britain and much of europe, communism has been intertwined with democracy in that the two work hand in hand in the same governmental systems. Communism has also adopted democracy in many places so they are also intermixing the two systems. The intermixing has been so gradual and carefully done that only the older generations who can remember how things once were have noticed the difference. In the west we call our governments democratic when what we actually are governed by is a mix. And likewize some communistic governments say communism but dont mention the democratic mix they have adopted.
In a way it may not matter what system is used. It is "Does it work for the people?" which is the most important point.


_________________
.


SocOfAutism
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 2 Mar 2015
Gender: Female
Posts: 2,848

12 Aug 2019, 2:35 pm

It is my understanding, from a great deal of required college reading, that a true communist state would look like either a hippy commune or close to the United Federation of Planets. No one would be in charge. I like to refer people to AA as a great example of a pure Marxist organization which is a success and has been in practice for a long time. I do not think they think of themselves as Marxist or communist, but they way they function is the structure that Marx seemed (to me) to be describing.

I think any borders would be determined by either the entire group or by an outside entity. For example, your neighbor tells you “I am not part of your communist society. My yard starts here.” And the group would respect that. Or the entire group decides that you live on “this island” and the borders are the island borders. But if it was global, yes, people would just go wherever. On this planet.



Magna
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 21 Jun 2018
Gender: Male
Posts: 6,932

12 Aug 2019, 7:53 pm

Mountain Goat wrote:
Communism. Good communism governments do not need to enforce a strict emmagration agenda as people generally will be happy to stay as they are. It is only when a government is not doing their jobs properly that they need to stop people leaving, as if they don't their country would not have anyone left to govern!
Communism in its purest forms is no different to democracy or a dictatorship or a monarchy... Each of the many systems out there is not bad in theory. It is more of how things pan out... Communism has the issue of inflexibility. Put it this way. If you are on the autistic spectrul communism is not for you. If you are an NT it maybe ideal!
Think communism is bad and democracy is good. For over 50 years both in the USA, Britain and much of europe, communism has been intertwined with democracy in that the two work hand in hand in the same governmental systems. Communism has also adopted democracy in many places so they are also intermixing the two systems. The intermixing has been so gradual and carefully done that only the older generations who can remember how things once were have noticed the difference. In the west we call our governments democratic when what we actually are governed by is a mix. And likewize some communistic governments say communism but dont mention the democratic mix they have adopted.
In a way it may not matter what system is used. It is "Does it work for the people?" which is the most important point.


Has there ever been a "Communist" government that's allowed it's citizens to come and go as they please?

So Communism as a successful ideal is theoretical but when applied by every government that's adopted it, it has quickly turned into a totalitarian state thereby ceasing to be a Communistic?



naturalplastic
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 26 Aug 2010
Age: 69
Gender: Male
Posts: 34,101
Location: temperate zone

12 Aug 2019, 8:14 pm

A totalitarian regime does not want people coming and going freely for a number of reasons.

Your suggestion that "if folks oppose the government just let them leave the country" - and that will siphon off opposition doesn't work. It would cause MORE danger from opposition. The Bay of Pigs invasion was fought by Cubans who had fled Castro. The opposition left, and then came back as an invading army to try to over throw him ( and with help from the US airforce and CIA).

Things do improve sometimes.

Vietnam is more "post communist" than communist now. And many Vietnamese who fled Vietnam after the fall of Saigon have returned to Vietnam, and shuttle back and forth to build businesses there, and here.



QFT
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 27 Jun 2019
Age: 44
Gender: Male
Posts: 3,456

13 Aug 2019, 3:29 am

I was puzzled about it a lot. I am US/Russia dual citizenship and I noticed two things:

a) My mom wants to be real careful when I go to Russia. She is afraid that if I do or say something weird they won't let me leave. Note that she isn't afraid they won't let me enter, she is only afraid they won't let me leave.

b) when I tell Americans the way in which Russia is better they tell me "so why don't you go back there". Note how they do the exact opposite to what Russians do. Instead of not letting me leave, they are asking me to.

So I have a joke. If I burn Russian and American flag next to each other, what country would I end up at? Answer: in Russia. After all, offended Americans would tell me "leave" while offended Rissians would tell me "don't leave" -- which means that both of them will have me be in Russia.

In any case I don't think either of those two things are real. When Americans are asking me to leave they are being sarcastic,and when my mom thinks Russians won't let me leave she is being paranoid. In reality I can go back and forth all I want as long as I am not breaking any laws. HOWEVER those statements might serve as can window into their menrality. American girls jeep breaking up with me and my Russian mother keeps trying to get me to extend my visits to her. See the parallel? Sometimes I wonder what if I were to date Russian girls, would they be forcing me to stay as opposed to making me leave? I have no idea: I never tried to date Russian girls as I moved to Anerica when I was 14. But I am rather curious.



Last edited by QFT on 13 Aug 2019, 4:01 am, edited 2 times in total.

Mountain Goat
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 13 May 2019
Gender: Male
Posts: 14,202
Location: .

13 Aug 2019, 3:59 am

Is fascinating what you have said there. Date Russian girls... You may then be stuck in Russia as well as they would drag you back to their villages! Haha! Mind you, in a way I could do with a lady who will look after me. :lol:
I enjoyed watching the spider in a box prank done in Russia. It is on YouTube.


_________________
.