Should Rock and Pop Stars be squeeky clean to have a career

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madbutnotmad
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14 Aug 2019, 2:58 pm

Hello
I was reading the news yesterday and noticed an article on Katie Perry, one of the artists who appeared on a show that she co-hosted has made allegations that she instigated sexual misconduct on him in public.

Now, i am not here to discuss the particulars of the case, but to debate.
I was thinking about the many cases that there have been involving various celebrities.
And where i feel that celebrities are normal people, who thus should be treated by the criminal justice system the same in terms of judging and sentencing.

I do not agree with the idea that rock and pop stars need to adhere to the strict rules that politicians have to.
I mean, within reason. Of course, no one wants a child molester looking after kids, or a violent serial rapist being in charge of a girls convent.

But, i do think that the world should treat rock and pop stars like normal people, in fact, like anyone else in a highly pressurised job where there is a lot of pressure and demands on a person physically and psychologically.

I think that of course, what some of the celebrities have been caught doing is perhaps not that nice, a bit naughty, a bit inappropriate, or just down right rude.

But hey, we are all normal people, perhaps some with less grip on reality than most. So perhaps more leniency should be given.

This may also stop some of these crazy events being reported, as these days i believe that a lot of these stories, whether true or not. Are used to ruin a rock or pop stars career. as well of course sell papers. As people love the gossip.

But what has resulted in is loads of otherwise decent enough reasonable people from not making any more music.
Which in many cases (perhaps not all cases) is a major shame. Bit like the premature death of some of the best rock stars in history, i.e. the 27 club.

Personally, i don't care if this rock star or that pop star got arrested for flashing their body parts, or caught with a prostitute, or found snorting cocaine off a homosexuals bum hole. really don't care. If that's what floats there boats, and no one has been significantly hurt. Then, no problem. Keep the tape rolling.

After all, rock and roll and the entertainment industry, has a long history of inappropriate behaviour associated with it.
I think the political assassinations has a great deal to do with why so many of the rock and pop stars have no personality or freedom these days.

I mean, in the 60s, you had all sorts going on with the wild antics of the Rockstars of their era, mostly which involved mischief than anything. Of course there were woman who got involved with these rockstars, but you don't see many of the them coming forward to complain about a one night stand with the beatles.... for many it probably made their life.

Also after reading a lot about the antics of these people in the 60s and 70s
seeing what makes the news today is extremely insignificant. I mean, you had Jim Morrison playing with his Tommy the Tank Engine on stage, being arrested after singing on live TV sex words.. and that was in the late 60s

I mean, its almost 50 years later, and people are now getting their lives ruined for doing something accidentally.
Its all just political assassination, designed to make money for the press, their competition or worse still, the opposition to the political party that they influence their voters to vote for...

Ho hum... all very fascist.

In fact, i would also include that judgement for politicians. As long as any mischief they get involved in doesn't stop them from doing their job properly, then perhaps the world should learn to be more forgiving.
As being too harsh on everyone does no one good as it sets a president for everyone to act.

Hate breeds hate so to speak.

For example, if the chancellor of the exchequer got caught with a prostitute, then so what. as long as he
does a good job when at work and doesn't rip everyone off.

Or if a prime minister gets caught smoking opium and sleeping in till 2 pm after staying up to late hours in the morning.
Then so what, after all that is what Winston Churchill did during the war.
In this day and age, if the PM did that, there would be a scandal and he would be sacked. If they had done that to Churchil, it is possible that the allied forces may have lost the second world war.

So yep. people should learn to be more forgiving, and we would all get along a lot better.
Forgiveness isn't always weakness, its making the best use of manpower, resources and money spent.
Why ruin a good thing when you got one going.



Drake
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14 Aug 2019, 4:54 pm

Yes, they should be free to have a career. That doesn't mean people have to support these stars, but they should be free to have the choice.

Theoretically I think it should be possible for a serial killer to write a book from their cell and if it's some masterwork win top literary awards for it.

This is the Twitter of John Scalzi:

https://mobile.twitter.com/scalzi?ref_s ... r%5Eauthor

I haven't looked at it for a looooong time, years, but I only had to go to the second tweet down to see he's still going at it on that Twitter. He's still a huge regressive:

https://mobile.twitter.com/scalzi/statu ... 8979599361

He's an author and I have some of his books. Doesn't stop me appreciating his books. That crap isn't in the books of his that I own, and this interview suggests he consciously keeps a level of separation between his very outspoken political views and his fictional work:

https://www.latimes.com/books/jacketcop ... story.html

Separate the artist from their work if they are able to do the same. You're just missing out on things you'll enjoy otherwise.



Biscuitman
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15 Aug 2019, 4:26 am

famous people are just people. I have never understood the obsession some people have with the personal lives of the rich and famous. I have famous people I look up to and think are great, but it's the talent (sport, music etc) that I am fascinated by and I couldn't care less about anything else around it.



BenderRodriguez
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15 Aug 2019, 5:36 am

I couldn't agree more, for a number of reasons.

Biscuitman wrote:
famous people are just people. I have never understood the obsession some people have with the personal lives of the rich and famous. I have famous people I look up to and think are great, but it's the talent (sport, music etc) that I am fascinated by and I couldn't care less about anything else around it.


As you say, it's talent I appreciate and if I was to impose any moral standards on artists, I would have to get rid of most of my (considerable) books, music and film collection and pretty much resign to an aesthetically and intellectually arid life. Historically speaking, great musicians, writers, artists etc were not exactly the nicest of people.

As for the obsession, I think it initially started by a petty need some people have to reassure themselves that gifted people or geniuses are "no better than the rest of us". At a human nature level, of course they aren't and since art is a demanding mistress, they often cope with such demands in a less than... honourable manner. Which, as far as I'm concerned, has nothing to do with their work.

What I find truly ridiculous these days though is the demand some people have that artists should be "role models" as if having talent is supposed to come with moral obligations that regular people don't hold themselves to. The hypocrisy is grating and the idea that one would seek moral guidance from a pop/rock star or an actor ludicrous.


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TheOther
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16 Aug 2019, 9:39 am

Of course people are people, and I don't think anyone should be beyond some sort of repentance unless they pose an active threat to others. People make mistakes.

I will say that celebrities have a lot of money, and have a huge amount of social influence. I believe that with more power should come more responsibility. I think you find that most of them do so in terms of supporting charities and bringing awareness to various good causes. It rubs me the wrong way when celebrities take their good fortune and let them spoil themselves. Lil Wayne recently walked off of a stage of a big show because he felt like performing for the relatively low number of people there (which was probably still thousands) was beneath him. People like Conor McGregor make me sick (he just punched a guy for merely not wanting to try the new whiskey he made).

On the flip side, I think having more money than you know what to do with, everyone singing your praises all of the time, having everyone obsessing over your entire life... It must drive people insane! How could that not make someone cray to a certain extent?

I actually find it totally understandable when people like Brittney Spears have a nervous breakdown and shave their head, or when Dave Chapelle dropped off of the face of the earth for a while. I can't imagine the kind of pressure and anxiety they must have gone through. There should be more understanding and forgiveness about this in my opinion. In addition, I think it is easy to say, for example, that you would never cheat on your spouse when no one is throwing themselves at you day in and day out. Celebrities are constantly put in positions that are compromising just by going about their lives, and it is hard to say that no one has a bad day and screws up. In some ways, maybe they are destined to fail on some level via the rules of probability.

I guess I would say that they should be treated like normal people, but that includes the fact that there are things a normal person could do that would be so reprehensible that I wouldn't want to support them or be associated with them. Then there are things that are bad, but can be forgiven if the person tries to make amends or at least tries to turn their life around.



The_Walrus
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17 Aug 2019, 3:22 am

Seeing someone compare straight-talking John Scalzi to a serial killer is a new one for me. Well, outside of Vox Day.

I can't help but feel that the question here is based on a false premise. We live in a world where there are many successful musicians who are not remotely "squeaky clean", and no prospect of that changing. Look at XXXTentacion as an extreme example, but it's trivial to reel off lists of prominent musicians who have been involved in prominent controversies. The music industry is a long long way from squeaky clean.



Drake
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17 Aug 2019, 4:52 am

The_Walrus wrote:
Seeing someone compare straight-talking John Scalzi to a serial killer is a new one for me. Well, outside of Vox Day.

I can't help but feel that the question here is based on a false premise. We live in a world where there are many successful musicians who are not remotely "squeaky clean", and no prospect of that changing. Look at XXXTentacion as an extreme example, but it's trivial to reel off lists of prominent musicians who have been involved in prominent controversies. The music industry is a long long way from squeaky clean.

Just a personal example to back up what I'm saying about don't let the artist stop you enjoying their work. I don't remember how I found out about his political leanings, but I didn't go looking. Probably with him being so outspoken it just came up in a search when looking for more books. Nearly all the authors who's books I have I have no idea what the person believes, and I don't need to. And the same goes for the creators of all other forms of entertainment.



The_Walrus
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17 Aug 2019, 9:35 am

Drake wrote:
The_Walrus wrote:
Seeing someone compare straight-talking John Scalzi to a serial killer is a new one for me. Well, outside of Vox Day.

I can't help but feel that the question here is based on a false premise. We live in a world where there are many successful musicians who are not remotely "squeaky clean", and no prospect of that changing. Look at XXXTentacion as an extreme example, but it's trivial to reel off lists of prominent musicians who have been involved in prominent controversies. The music industry is a long long way from squeaky clean.

Just a personal example to back up what I'm saying about don't let the artist stop you enjoying their work. I don't remember how I found out about his political leanings, but I didn't go looking. Probably with him being so outspoken it just came up in a search when looking for more books. Nearly all the authors who's books I have I have no idea what the person believes, and I don't need to. And the same goes for the creators of all other forms of entertainment.
I don't know if you're familiar with the Rabid Puppies movement who tried to fix the Hugo Awards so that works promoting their political views won. Scalzi was quite outspoken against those people and that earned him a lot of vitriol.



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17 Aug 2019, 3:59 pm

The_Walrus wrote:
Drake wrote:
The_Walrus wrote:
Seeing someone compare straight-talking John Scalzi to a serial killer is a new one for me. Well, outside of Vox Day.

I can't help but feel that the question here is based on a false premise. We live in a world where there are many successful musicians who are not remotely "squeaky clean", and no prospect of that changing. Look at XXXTentacion as an extreme example, but it's trivial to reel off lists of prominent musicians who have been involved in prominent controversies. The music industry is a long long way from squeaky clean.

Just a personal example to back up what I'm saying about don't let the artist stop you enjoying their work. I don't remember how I found out about his political leanings, but I didn't go looking. Probably with him being so outspoken it just came up in a search when looking for more books. Nearly all the authors who's books I have I have no idea what the person believes, and I don't need to. And the same goes for the creators of all other forms of entertainment.
I don't know if you're familiar with the Rabid Puppies movement who tried to fix the Hugo Awards so that works promoting their political views won. Scalzi was quite outspoken against those people and that earned him a lot of vitriol.

I am. The belief was there's a bias against conservative authors, but if there was, it ended up just forcing that bias in the opposite direction. I don't think that was the intent. And it certainly wasn't treated as a victory afterward either. That's not where I found out about Scalzi's views though. At least I don't think it was, even if I knew he opposed the Puppies, that wouldn't have told me that.

What it did do, I could see it anyway as soon as I found out how the Hugo Awards work, is show up what a bad system it is.



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17 Aug 2019, 4:12 pm

Yes, it certainly exposed a flaw. I'm not sure I trust the public to vote on prizes for shorter works, or the more technical prizes. I think the system worked well for big categories though.

I think Scalzi helped implement some anti-slate measures and those seem to have been effective. Don't know exactly what they entail.



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17 Aug 2019, 4:40 pm

Musicians, artists, and writers are not normal people -- nor would we want them to be. They are more likely to lean toward deviancy than being "squeaky clean."


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18 Aug 2019, 4:52 am

Many such stars are liked *because* they're *not* squeaky clean.


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18 Aug 2019, 6:19 pm

Biscuitman wrote:
famous people are just people. I have never understood the obsession some people have with the personal lives of the rich and famous. I have famous people I look up to and think are great, but it's the talent (sport, music etc) that I am fascinated by and I couldn't care less about anything else around it.


Famous people are there to show that really anyone can make it. Then they get taken down, for thinking they are something better than everyone else. It's the American conception of success, combined with the American conception of equality.


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