New girl in my office

Post Reply New Topic

Neither. It is just that if I were to use CBT in my user name it would make a certain statement which I don't necesserely want to make. I guess it would make me look like a lifelong patient or something and, at that, stupid enough patient to be proud of it. The only other alternative is a shrink passionately advocating a specific therapy he is specializing at -- which is not what I want to come across either.

I saw that I typo'd CBT once (at the quote onset) and the other ones I was actually referring to CBT (not you personally). If I typo'd CBT more than once then it's b/c it's been on my mind in general (not related to you). I've been ingesting 1,000s of pages of ASD materials and CBT comes up a lot. BTW I am a lifelong learner (patient) and proud of it! (Although, yes, I am careful about who I tell.)

UPDATE: So probably a month or two ago, the Chinese girl (who does talk to me) passed my office and had some really brief conversation with that officemate girl I been talking about (I don't remember the topic). So then I took an opportunity and I sent that Chinese girl a text message asking her whether that officemate of mine said anything bad about me and complaining how she wouldn't talk to me. Her answer was that she didn't say anything -- either good or bad -- she never mentioned me altogether. As far as not talking to me, she said that she just doesn't know me and suggested I talk to her myself.

I then told her that no, its not as simple as her not knowing me, and explained to her about that first day that didn't go well. At first she was saying its not a big deal and I should try to talk to her. But then -- after I mentioned that part about staring -- then she said why don't I ask the secretary to change the office, and suggested I move into her office because she talks to me. Then I said I don't want to ask a secretary for the office change because that would require me telling her what happened -- and might make me look bad to the department. She said she understand, and offered me that she talks to my officemate herself. Now, even though I realize it is quite awkward I agreed to that, since I am desperate.

In any case, one of the main things she kept suggesting whenever she was encouraging me to talk to her was offering her help with either homework or preparing for qualifying exams. I kept refusing to do so. First of all, she never asked me for help, so why should I all of a sudden offer help on my own. So it seems like either (i) I somehow enjoy being a free tutor (which isn't true -- so I don't want to look that way) or (ii) I am trying to manipulate the situation to get something (which I don't want to do either). Besides, there was one student (other than those two girls) who DID ask me to help, and I was helping her simply because I have trouble saying no. I ended up feeling used. So helping someone doesn't really address the friendship thing I am concerned about. Having me help them isn't a friendship. But, last but not least, like I said, she never asked me for help, so I don't want to do something I am not asked for -- particularly since I have plenty of my own work.

Now, *before* she talked to her, she already was suggesting that help thing, and I already told her like two or three times how I am refusing her suggesting of me helping her. But -- despite my refusals -- when I asked her to paraphrase the conversation between her and that officemate, she DID suggest that I help her. So that makes me wonder was she really trying to help me or was she trying to use my desperation to help my officemate (they happened to be taking the same class). But no, that officemate didn't ask me for help, not even after that conversation.

What *DID* happen, though, is that she started saying hello to me, when I came. But, at the same time, I started coming a lot less often than I used to: I booked for myself a room in the library for the semester so that I don't have to be reminded of her every time I have to study. That, plus also I don't want her to feel like I am forcing her to talk to me. So since having that other girl talking to her "might" make her feel that way, I decided to show up as few times as possible to avoid this. I *do* have to show up to my office when I hold office hours for the class I am a TA for -- which is two hours Wednesday evening and one hour Friday morning -- so I run onto her those times. I always make sure she says hello first, and most of the time I respond with hello (although there was one time when she smiled -- and then I grabbed something from the shelf and left, and purposely avoided responding). But the conversation doesn't extend much more beyond hello.

So, once in a while, I sent that Chinese girl new messages regarding why she still doesn't talk to me (not every day though; it was more like once a week or once in two weeks -- after all the fact that she "does" say hello, as well as the fact that I have that other room I can go to, makes it easier for me not to obsess about it like I used to). Now, her typical responses to those messages are the following:

1. Here are the classes/tests she seems to have trouble with, why don't you ask her if she needs help

(My rebuttal: the same as I described earlier)

2. Why don't you talk to her about such and such non-academic things

(My rebutal: the fact that I have to start those conversations rather than her makes me feel like she doesn't want to talk to me, so why should I force her to do it? i will wait till she starts conversation with me herself; her rebutal: she had to talk to her first too)

3. Its okay if she doesn't talk to you, there are some people who don't talk to me too (and she mentioned a couple of examples)

(My rebutal: but she talks to others yet not me, so somehow I am worse)

I would say the response number 1 is the one she makes more often than the other two; yet she made the other two responses quite a few times as well.

The other thing she told me is that the officemate told her that I am constantly busy and so she doesn't want to disturb me. But that doesn't make sense either: everyone is busy when they are in their office -- that is what the office is for! So could it be just a polite excuse? We are all familiar with "I am busy" line -- but maybe she wanted to be "even more" polite and said "you are busy" instead?

In any case, after we went on circles around the above responses here is what happened at the very end:

ME: She probably acts that way towards me because of what happened the first day

HER: Yes first impressions are important, but that doesn't mean they can't change. She seems quite friendly, I don't know why you can't talk to her". By the way I got her phone number just today

ME: The fact that she is friendly to others makes me take it even more personally since it implies that there is something about me that I am the only person she is unfriendly towards

(few day pause which is unusual to her -- usually she responds right away -- so I am not sure if it was because (i) it was the first time I used the expression "take it personal" or (ii) she got her phone number so maybe she told her some things she didn't tell her before)

HER (few days later): I don't know what to say, its a personal issue between you and her. All I can tell you though is you shouldn't dwell on the past so much. You can't change the past but you can change the future.

Now, the above reply was few days ago. Then there was Thanksgiving, so I didn't come to my office between then and today. Today I came to my office and she didn't say hi to me -- which is the first time she didn't say hi after they had those conversations. I guess to be fair I just came to my office to grab a book from the shelf and then left. But I did that before as well, yet she was saying hi those other times, but not today.

Last edited by QFT on 02 Dec 2019, 5:17 pm, edited 3 times in total.

 
 

Welcome back, QFT.

Communication is a two-way street. Until you say "hi" to her first or otherwise explain to her your style, as far as I am concerned you're stuck: you are not reciprocating. Why did you purposely avoid responding when she smiled?

Now you know she doesn't want to disturb you. So you can get up and talk to her to demonstrate that you are not busy. Would you want to talk to her?

Today I was officially diagnosed with ASD. I am a loving, warm, outgoing individual who excels in math and visual processing 99.6%. I crave social connection but am easily put off. In school, I was known by everybody but was lonely, any friendships I had felt tenuous. You remind me of a withdrawn student I tried to make friends with. Once I somehow offended him (maybe he saw me laughing with other folks?) and then it seemed I was dead to him (he avoided me and would not respond). I accepted that; I had enough problems of my own. It meant yet another friendless class. I was used to that. Being warm and outgoing and being social adept are different things.

I am glad you are have lowered your anxiety about the issue; sorry it still lingers. What does your social skills counselor say?

Well, I talked to her through the third party instead -- and most people don't do it. So which way is it: am I too shy for not saying hi first, or am I too confrontational for talking to her through the third party? I think the latter would outweigh the former, just for the fact that its something most people don't do.



I thought I am reciprocating: when she says "hi" I say "hi" back.

If you say I am not reciprocating in a sense that my response to her "hi" isn't meaningful, then by the same logic her first "hi" isn't meaningful either. And its for two reasons:

1. She only says hi because the third party asked her to do it -- she didn't say it before

2. Even if she did say hi before (which she didn't) it would have been a mere social ritual that has no real meaning

The point is that she never asked me how I was doing or anything else. She was like "okay, you pester me through the third party to say hi, fine I will say hi, happy now?"



Because I felt like I forced her to do it through the third party. Which means that

a) Its not genuine anyway

b) I feel guilty for forcing her to do something she doesn't want to



I don't "know" it. The only thing I "know" is that this is what she said. Do I know that what she said reflects what she thinks? Nope. It is quite likely that the reason she said it is that she felt cornered -- since she was approached by the third party -- so she decided to say whatever it takes in order to defuse the situation.

Let me give you an example. So back when I was in junior high, I was bullied. One of the bullies kept wanting to go home with me, which I didn't like. So one day I went home without him. Then one other guy asked me why wasn't I going home with him. I don't remember what I said -- but I imagine I either said that I thought he left or I said that I thought he would leave much later than me, or perhaps something else similar along those lines -- but its not true. Actually I wanted to get away from him, but I wouldn't say thats the case. Now, with that same bully, there was the other time when I was waiting for him to walk home with me, and the teacher asked him "are you sure you want to go home with him? Don't you see he looks rather nervious about it?" and he asked me "are you nervous?" I said "no I am not", and I reassured the teacher that I wanted to go home with him -- which I didn't.

Now, I realize that I don't bully that girl to the extend those bullies were bullying me (for one thing I don't even talk to her outside of third party communication) -- but then again I am not in junior high any more either; so, which is worse: to do what I am doing now as an adult, or what those bullies did back then as kids? Good question. But, regardless, here is the point: if she felt uncomfortable by the whole situation -- then sure, she might have said she thought I was busy (much like I am sure I would make similar excuses to stay away from the bullies back in junior high).



Why are you saying I am not busy? Of course I am busy: if I wasn't busy, what would I be doing at school anyway?

But the point is that being busy doesn't preclude talking to people. Here is an example. My other officemate (the male one) is busy too. Guess what: she asked him how is his classes coming along and they expressed concern for each other since they were both behind on some work. So why doesn't she ask me about my busy lifestyle as well? Thats why I feel like saying I am busy is just an excuse.



Yes -- if its genuine. No -- if its me forcing her to talk.



Wow thats really exciting. I am too used to assuming that in those web-forums that aren't math/physics related, nobody knows math except for me.

So do you know higher math? Do you know calculus? What about linear algebra? What about abstract algebra (like rings, fields, integral domains)? What about differential geometry?

What degree did you get at school?



Was it because

a) he thought you were laughting AT him

OR

b) He knew it wasn't at him, but he just felt jealous that you had friends and he didn't

If neither of the two, what was it?



Well, in his case he was the one who didn't want to talk to you. In my case I desperately want to talk, and she wouldn't.

Here is food for thought. When I read websites about women rejecting men, they often post pictures of a guy turning away from the woman and staring off into space. But wait a second: if he stares off into space, isn't *he* rejecting *her*? But no, its understood that she is the one who rejected him. Why? Because its a common knowledge that a common reaction to rejection is staring off somewhere and pretending to be disinterested. But if its a common knowledge, why doesn't my officemate know it when she says I am busy? The answer is she probably DOES know it, but she PURPOSELY prentends not to since its convenient to her, given how it helps her avoid talking to me with less drama.



I talked to him about lots of other people, not just her. So his general comment to me -- regarding my interaction with people in general -- is that I shouldn't be so argumentative and that, if I get argumentative, then the typical response people would have is to distance away. And then he brought up that girl as an example. But you see, I talked to him about that girl probably a month BEFORE that conversation -- so this time he brought her up totally on his own -- which suggests that he interprets this situation closer to the way I do than to the way you do: that I pushed her away which caused her to be more distant.

However, he agrees with you as far as saying that it was a bad idea for me to refuse a cookie. But he framed it differently. He said the cookie was a "piece offering".

In any case, he doesn't know about my talking to her through the third party. I only see him once a month if that -- and the last time I saw him I didn't have time to mention it since I only had an hour and I felt like talking about other things first, and then the hour was up. So I am not sure what he will say with regards to the third party. I actually am going to see him the day after tomorrow. So I might bring that up. Although I have a few other things to bring up as well (particularly some girls I talk to online) so I am not sure which I will be able to fit in an hour. I will see.

Response 1 of 2 (2 will come later)

That is responding. Reciprocating would be: Sometimes she says "hi" first. Sometimes you say "hi" first. Now to your point, if you are not somebody to say "hi" first, then you could reciprocate in a different way --- like your own "peace offering". I suppose you talking to the third party is an attempt, but indirect for sure...


I understand (in the past I have told my husband that I am disappointed in a gift b/c I had to "beg" him for it; or if he left a greeting card and didn't sign it!). However, if you want to get along with a person, take the seed of communication ("hi" even if forced) and encourage it grow (converse), don't stomp on it (unresponsive) or keep pulling it up (ruminate) - the roots won't set.


OK, something similar occurred for me at work. I "forced" my mgmt. to be kinder and I was very wary at first, but now I somewhat enjoy those infrequent moments. In the least, I find them amusing. Teasing: Can kindness be a workplace "accommodation"?


Sorry, I was being facetious. You had indeed stated you thought it was representative of other underlying concerns; I understood but needled you anyway. If she is using "busy" as a euphemism for being put off, then you could use it "back" to encourage communication.


Exactly. The euphemism. "I'm not busy" means "Talking to you can be a priority sometimes" or "I'm busy and would like to talk you for 5 minutes in any case." By the way, my NT husband will say to be "I'm busy" so he can be a selfish arse. Drives my nuts. My response is, "Yes, honey, we are all 'busy'. Would you please take the time..." I have been known to accuse my husband "why did you bother marrying anyone (me, who needs attention), if you are too busy to be with that person (me)?" My Aspie-like BFF is more like you and doesn't "need" attention, so if he had married her, he could be "busy" all he wants. But life would be boring and he knows that. I bring a lot of excitement to his life, but he has to reciprocate (his attention gives me more spoons).


I would go with "yes" and do your part (directly) until you decide "no". I suggest you drop the conditional.

Well, in the last sentence of your own quote (above) you said that talking to the third party is an attempt. So I guess we then agree that I DID reciprocate after all. I must add I did it inappropriately -- which I guess you might or might not agree with -- but at the very least you can't say I didn't reciprocate.



That whole analogy with your husband is silly for one obvious reason: he is your husband; and, presumably, you didn't have to force this to happen; also, presumably, he isn't trying to file a divorce either. So whatever he neglects to do has nothing to do with disliking you. In case of that woman in my office it very much does. In her case I have no idea how she acts around people she wants to be around with. All I know is that, in my case, she doesn't want me around -- and its her way of showing it.

As a side note, I wouldn't have been begging for the gift in your situation either, since -- like you said yourself -- begging kind of invalidates its meaning. But like I said, its a different topic.



You are acting under assumption that there is some seed of something. There isn't. She basically said hi to me to get me to stop bothering her through that third party.



Maybe its an English problem and I don't know the actual meaning of the word "ruminate". I thought "ruminate" means something similar to obsess. But why would obsessing about something amount to pulling up the seed? When I obsess its my way of trying to make it work.

But I do realized that -- if I look at every time I obsess -- it ends up being counter-productive, despite the fact that logically it seems like it should help. Thats why I had to ask you why you view obsession as analogous to pulling up the seed -- which, to me, is counter-intuitive -- maybe if you explain where you are coming from, it would explain why my past relationships weren't working.

Or are you saying that the meaning of the word ruminate is not obsess but something else? I mean its possible that I just misunderstood the word: my native language is Russian.



If kindness is workplace accomodation, it invalidates the whole emotional meaning behind it. That is actually why I am reluctant to talk to that woman the way you suggest.



Thats not how she used it, since she didn't say "she" was busy, she said "I" was.

Or are you saying she still used it in one of the two ways:

(i) her point was that "I" was put off at "her" (as evident by these very posts where I express frustration) so she figured I might not want to talk to someone I am so frustrated with?

(ii) She used two things at once. One is replacing "put off" with "busy" and the other is replacing herself with me?



The comparison with me in the quote above implies that you are assuming I don't need attention. But that is simply not true.

1. If I didn't need attention, why would I be typing for all those hours how I am frustrated with not getting any attention? I mean look at both this post right here talking about attention from my officemate as well as most of my other posts on wrongplanet focusing on attention from other women.

2. If I look at how my relationships were falling apart, one of the key factors was that the women I was dating didn't give me as much attention as I wanted -- which I took as a sign of rejection -- so I started fights over them not giving me attention and those fights caused relationships to deteriorate. I guess that wasn't the sole reason -- I still think they started to deteriorate before that -- as evident by the fact that their attention declined to begin with. But many of them still said that me being too demanding was a big part of it.

I guess maybe you are confusing me saying I don't want myself to initiate an attention with assuming I don't need an attention. But actually those things are totally different. I want to feel liked. In order to feel liked, two things needs to happen:

a) I should receive lots of attention

b) The other person has to be the one to initiate it

You are thinking that b suggests I want to be left alone. No it doesn't. Rather, b goes hand in hand with a: both parts amount to wanting emotional validation.



Do you want to eat? Yes? Why don't you go and eat grass from the ground?

Here is the point. The emotional reasons for me to talk to her would go unfulfilled if I feel like she doesn't want to talk to me. In fact, it would make me feel even worse, since I would feel even more like someone disliked who has to beg to be talked to.

What? You start fights for not getting as much attention as you want? That's just not how mature adults do things. If you want more attention, first you try to get it through natural ways, like talking to the people you want the attention from more and suggesting to do stuff together. If that doesn't work, you either a: give up or b: talk about it like an adult instead of throwing a tantrum. Talk, don't accuse. Remember to listen to their side of things and that they are likely to see some things differently from you.
Little kids often try to get attention by throwing tantrums and doing bad things and it usually works, but that's just not how adults do things.

I didn't mean to say I purposely "start" fights; I meant to say those things "end up" being fights. Typically, what I start is something along these lines: "I notice before I did X, Y and Z you were giving me more attention than after I did X, Y and Z, so could it be one of those three things that made you give me less attention". Sometimes she would say "no" and then I would persist "if its a no, what else is it". Sometimes she would refuse to answer and then I would push more. Other times she would answer with either "yes you are right its X, Y, Z" or "well, its A, B and C instead". If A, B and C are similarly about me, then I would believe whatever she says and start a debate over it -- trying to prove to her that she misinterpretted my intetions behind either X, Y or Z or A, B and C, whichever she says is the problem. In either case, she oftentimes wouldn't have patience to talk about those things as much as I want to (probably because she is already fed up with me due to said X, Y and Z) and when she refuses to talk then only I would throw a tantrum.

1. What exactly is the "attention" you expect?
2. Do you give sufficient attention to your gfs?

In different relationships its different since it usually involves the contrast with how much attention she used to give me versus how much attention she is giving me now. For example, if you look at this thread ( viewtopic.php?t=377751 ) then in this particular case I wanted her to talk to me for 5 hours a day and send me emails 3 pages long. No, thats not what I want from any other girl -- if any other girl gave me as much attention as she was giving at the time when I was accusing her of lack of attention -- I would have said its great. But in her specific case I was telling her "you used to be so special you were giving me more attention than most girls ever would, but after I threw that temper tantrum you became just like other girls, there is nothing special about you any more -- thats why I want to undo that tantrum so that I could get that special thing we used to have". And I was right, it "was" started by my tantrum, which is precisely why I wanted to undo it so badly -- which would be signified by my getting back an attention she used to give me.

The ironic thing is that "if" I were to continue to receive this attention, I myself wouldn't have been able to keep up with this for the simple thing that I have studies to do. In fact, back at the time when I "did" have it, I kept thinking "what can I do to excuse myself so that I can go do that homework already" but I was too shy to say I had to go so I felt stuck there. But then when things changed and she no longer spend all that time with me, then I became upset because of the reasons behind it: namely, my tantrum.

But like I said with other girls I am not *that* demanding. Why? Because none of them gave me so much attention on the first place. So the point I am trying to make is that it is always about the *contrast* between the attention a given girl *used* to give me and the attention she is giving me now.



There were times when girls accused me of not showing the attention when they needed it, and it often happened that I simply was unaware of this. So then I started debates over how I can change and how I can do those things that they want me to do for them from that point on and that I want another chance. But the thing is that they didn't break up with me so technically I had another chance -- but I felt like they were "about" to break up since they weren't showing me the attention. So I would often say things along those lines: "you stopped doing X after I didn't do Y, but I told you I will be doing Y from now on, so why can't you do X again" and they would be like "no, its not because of Y, I am just busy" and I would be like "how come your becoming busy at work exactly coincided with the time I neglected to do Y".

You seem unaware of the fact that intensity of behaviors linked with relationship naturally changes over time.
You can't have butterflies in your stomach all the time. At some point, you either get comfortable with each other and enter the next, less intense stage of relationship or you break up.

If I take the long term relationship I had in 2012--2014, then yes it went into that next, less exciting, stage at some point. But I didn't throw fits about it since it happened on my end, not just hers. On the other hand, if it happens specifically on girls end -- and especially if it happens abruptly, as is the case in the thread I referred you to -- that is when I begin to read into things.

In fact, even if I take that 2012--2014 girl, there was "one specific" day when I accused her of lack of attention (that day was in the fall 2014, about one or two months before she broke up with me, so I was right in thinking something was wrong). Anyway, here is what happened. So, as a background information, she is very religious southern baptist and she lives with her family even though she is in her 30-s (she won't move away until she marries). So we were in a long distance relationship and I was supposed to skype with her. I usually skype with her from home, but I was late, so I decided to go to restaurant and skype with her from there. She didn't like that there is a bar in a background. Me personally -- even though I am religions too -- I don't see anything wrong with the bar being on a background: as long as I don't order any drinks myself, who cares. But she thought its bad -- she was particularly concerned what if her family sees it -- so she said I should probably go outside the bar and chat with her from the outside so that her family doesn't see the bar. So I paid for the tea that I ordered and left outside to talk to her from outside. Now, when she talked to me outside, she started talking about the places she likes to go to eat to. So, on the surface, there is nothing wrong with this conversation: its neither positive nor negative, just neutral. But then I accused her of why is she being so neutral instead of telling me how much she loves me But you see, like I told you, that relationship started in December 2012 and it was October 2014, so the honeymoon stage was long over. So how come this was the only time I accused her of her distance? Well, it was because I interpretted her distance as a sign that she was still upset that I was at the restaurant -- and this interpretation is what caused me to call her out on it.

Maybe you always trying to prove that you did nothing wrong is the problem? As in, maybe those women have thought that since you're denying so hard that you did nothing wrong, it is more important for you to prove that you're right than consider their feelings, that being right is more important to you than they can ever be. The thing is, even if you're sure you're right, you still need to remember that the other person is a human being with feelings. If their feelings get hurt because of something you did, then if you care about the person, you should apologize even if you don't agree on having done nothing wrong. In a case like that, you're not exactly apologizing for what you did (or are being falsely accused of doing), but simply for the fact that a miscommunication got her feelings hurt. And then you can talk about what she thinks happened and if you disagree, tell her what you think happened. You mustn't forget that the other person has feelings too and their own way of looking at the world.

Also, throwing a tantrum when someone refuses to talk to you is still childish. If it's very clear that someone doesn't want to talk to you, don't force it, unless it's some coworker or something you just have to talk to in order to do your job properly.

I mean, often times (including that thread I linked to) I do admit I did something wrong. But the issue is that I want to "undo" it, and when I am told it can't be undone, that's when the arguments start. Like in case of that linked thread, the girl wasn't breaking up yet, but she admitted that part of the reason she stopped sending long emails was my tantrum. When I asked her whether it will ever get back to where it used to be she said she doesn't know. Yet she wasn't breaking up. So I asked her am I supposed to accept a loveless relationship. She said she never said it's loveless: it's neither better nor worse just different. And I wasn't buying it: if she isn't willing to put time into long emails she used to AND it happened abruptly AND it was triggered by my tantrum then of course it's worse. But she asked me to just accept it. Well I can't just accept that something that was triggered by one thing I truly regret can't be undone and it's consequences will last a lifetime despite the fact that it only took me half a minute to sent her that text message I shouldn't have sent her.

I guess in case of restaurant example it's different. In this case I in fact felt I didn't do anything wrong (in contrast to that tantrum situation when I know I did). But still, nothing is black and white. I can probably see her point of view. But, once again, in order for me to look for points of agreement rather than points if disagreements, I need to know that IF what I did was wrong I would be able to fix it. And that's where the distance ussue comes in. If she didn't distance herself, I would take it as constructive criticism and say thank you. But if she distances herself then I want to prove her wrong so that I can get that bond back.

And here is a different topic: what about those few times when girls told me they had reservations because of Asperger? What should I be apologizing for in those cases? I guess, to be fair, in at least half of those cases I did other things to put them off first, so I guess I could apologize for those. But given the way they phrased it I was too angry to apologize for anything. That plus what about the remaining couple of cases when I, in fact, didn't do anything?