Being validated then later invalidated for the same thing

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Aurora911
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23 Aug 2019, 6:39 pm

Hello,
I have a mom who seems happy when I make certain choices but later acts unhappy about the same things. One example is my mom has suggested low income housing options and getting on waitlists. I am currently in between things because I am waiting to have surgery soon and am using this time to get on waiting lists. I am also going through emotional development, my last job didn't go so well even thoughI put a lot of effort into it. I have really been questioning the value of effort and how to channel it after that experience.
I understand that things don't always go as planned but that one was kind of an extreme example more like something I would've expected if I had put minimal effort in. Results were basically the opposite as intended. I was talking with mom about this and she is on about my fear of going back to work.
I have plans to be set up with a job coach as I job hunt after the surgery. During one of our conversations my mom went on about my fear of moving forward, and had the nerve to say "and your willing to settle for public housing" after encouraging me to get on waitlists earlier.
Has anyone else had the same problem, where a close one supports your decision and later rejects it? I am strongly considering taking everything my mom says with a grain of salt.
It is possible that she just wasn't thinking at the moment about the gap between what she said before and what she is saying. Somehow this particular one carries a lot of weight. I kind of feel like my whole life is a lie and wonder if reality is really not real and maybe realizing it is not real will make me no longer real. I am somewhat apathetic about the consequences of knowing too much because I am tired of putting effort into things that are not meant to be.



SharonB
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23 Aug 2019, 11:15 pm

My mom gaslighted me. She could convince me that I had convinced her of something I didn't believe in but was her idea and was now clearly a bad idea (hence mine). It took me until my early 40s to start separating from her whack. I'm in my late 40s and about 50% there with holding boundaries with her. I see you are younger so kudos to your for noticing a similar dynamic much earlier than I did.

I read the difference between RAD and ASD is that in RAD the child doesn't trust the adult, but in ASD we naively keep going back for validation. Time to respectfully stop our trust. I'm practicing assertiveness. I'm pretty sure by my 60s I'll have it down pat!! After decades of depression and anxiety, I'm transitioning to be one happy, hip, feisty old lady. :wink:

Wishing you well for your transition. I know from personal experience how bumpy it can be.



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24 Aug 2019, 9:20 am

Old news. Talk therapists gaslight their patients all the time. I think they learn to do it in therapy school, where it's called "helping a 'client' get past resistance". Which includes lying. Which, in the minds of therapists, is anything and everything that goes against their personal opinions or academic training. For example, if they believe that all patients must gush about feelings like telenovela actors, any answers deviating from that are "lies" or "resistance". Plus, it's easier to just gaslight a patient into complying with their beliefs, rather than making an effort to understand their patients. And pat yourself on the back for being helpful, of course.

My therapist always said something like this: "How did that make you feel?" / "This and that." / "You didn't feel that; try again." So I would, only to be accused of lying. Then, when I'd get fed up and tell a complete lie, she's praise for, wait for it... being open with my feelings. After sessions like this, I'd sneak my parents' whiskey just to calm down before bedtime. I was 12. In high school, when I started needing more alcohol, I resorted to buying cooking wine in the Italian food aisle. It tasted nasty, but did the job. I drink to this day.



Aurora911
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25 Aug 2019, 3:00 pm

Thank you all for your insight. I think this may have happened because my mom gets tired when she comes home from working with special ed kids so her mind is temporarily more closed and she tends to have a strong bias because she hears a lot of excuses from kids that have parents who do things like have a bunch of children and not take care of them and collect a lot of benefits in the process. My mom's mind can often change with her moods and sadly I got that from her and I am working on emotional regulation so that my moods don't effect my choices as much.
I am not exactly going to excuse her behavior. I am going to start by not talking to her much during the week when she has a lot on her mind and what she says is likely to be poorly thought out. She is going to have to prove she is worthy of my attention during those times. I am also working on not turning to her for validation and have been doing it less often. I will see if I keep running into these patterns and consider adding further relationship distance if this persists.
I definitely called her on it by telling her something like " Earlier you encouraged me to start getting my name on these waitlists. I feel as if you are going to eventually disapprove of anything I do" That left her speechless. When she tried to talk go me again I flat out told her that I am feeling very disgusted and don't want to talk for a while, and that I know that I might be overreacting but this is how I feel.



Mona Pereth
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25 Aug 2019, 4:51 pm

Aurora911 wrote:
My mom's mind can often change with her moods and sadly I got that from her and I am working on emotional regulation so that my moods don't effect my choices as much.

How radically do your mother's beliefs/attitudes tend to change with her moods? Does she tend to regard a person as an angel one day and then a devil the next day?

(If so, that might be a sign of a personality disorder, e.g. Borderline PD -- which, fortunately, is treatable these days. I've heard a lot of good things about "dialectical behavior therapy," although I'm not sure exactly what that is.)

Aurora911 wrote:
I am not exactly going to excuse her behavior. I am going to start by not talking to her much during the week when she has a lot on her mind and what she says is likely to be poorly thought out. She is going to have to prove she is worthy of my attention during those times. I am also working on not turning to her for validation and have been doing it less often. I will see if I keep running into these patterns and consider adding further relationship distance if this persists.
I definitely called her on it by telling her something like " Earlier you encouraged me to start getting my name on these waitlists. I feel as if you are going to eventually disapprove of anything I do" That left her speechless. When she tried to talk go me again I flat out told her that I am feeling very disgusted and don't want to talk for a while, and that I know that I might be overreacting but this is how I feel.

I suspect that your relationship with your mother might improve at least a little bit if both you and she were to make a point of learning to be assertive without being aggressive. There are lots of online tutorials on this topic. One of the best ones I've found so far is this one: How To Be Assertive Without Being Aggressive (podcast and transcript - Personal Excellence).


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Last edited by Mona Pereth on 25 Aug 2019, 5:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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25 Aug 2019, 4:57 pm

Yes, I have one of those too. She lives very much in the moment and is very directionless. She says whatever pops into her head at the time even if it's contrary to something she was adamant about yesterday. It's very frustrating.
She loves someone one day and hates them with a vengeance the next. You never know where you are with her.

Sometimes she says I'm too fat, sometimes she says I'm not fat. You can't win.

I learned at 17 to stop listening to her.

You have to do what is right for you. Work out the most logical route.

It sucks when your primary support can't be consistent, but I'm 37 now and I'm still alive, live on my own, have a job.

Do you have some other older experienced person you can go to for advice?



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25 Aug 2019, 5:16 pm

hurtloam wrote:
Yes, I have one of those too. She lives very much in the moment and is very directionless. She says whatever pops into her head at the time even if it's contrary to something she was adamant about yesterday. It's very frustrating.
She loves someone one day and hates them with a vengeance the next. You never know where you are with her.

Sometimes she says I'm too fat, sometimes she says I'm not fat. You can't win.

I learned at 17 to stop listening to her.

You have to do what is right for you. Work out the most logical route.

It sucks when your primary support can't be consistent, but I'm 37 now and I'm still alive, live on my own, have a job.

Do you have some other older experienced person you can go to for advice?



What is your secret in terms of experiencing gaslighting from others? I seem to be in a catch 22 in the sense of if I deal with my mom, she uses gaslighting tactics against me, if I try to avoid her then others gaslight me about how they don't want to deal with me unless I go through a parent first, and my dad is deceased.



Mona Pereth
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25 Aug 2019, 5:57 pm

Bravo5150 wrote:
What is your secret in terms of experiencing gaslighting from others? I seem to be in a catch 22 in the sense of if I deal with my mom, she uses gaslighting tactics against me, if I try to avoid her then others gaslight me about how they don't want to deal with me unless I go through a parent first, and my dad is deceased.

Why do other people need/want you to "go through a parent first"? According to your profile, you're 39 years old. Does your mother have guardianship? Or do people just assume you must be "ret*d" or something because you are very obviously not NT? Also, by "other people," do you mean people in general or just, for example, DD service providers?


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Bravo5150
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25 Aug 2019, 6:07 pm

Mona Pereth wrote:
Bravo5150 wrote:
What is your secret in terms of experiencing gaslighting from others? I seem to be in a catch 22 in the sense of if I deal with my mom, she uses gaslighting tactics against me, if I try to avoid her then others gaslight me about how they don't want to deal with me unless I go through a parent first, and my dad is deceased.

Why do other people need/want you to "go through a parent first"? According to your profile, you're 39 years old. Does your mother have guardianship? Or do people just assume you must be "ret*d" or something because you are very obviously not NT? Also, by "other people," do you mean people in general or just, for example, DD service providers?


One example comes from when I was arrested on a warrant meant for someone else with the same name. When I went before the judge to be arraigned, I asked to see a copy of the report and he refused to provide me a copy of it. So due to his refusal to explain the charges, I had to make up a story on how my mother(who worked in the public defenders office at the time) probably falsified some documents to have me arrested instead of filing a missing persons report. Then after my lawyer talked things over with her, she got mad because I accused her of doing something wrong even though I gave the best explanation possible given how little information the judge gave me.

She is not my guardian.



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25 Aug 2019, 7:35 pm

hurtloam wrote:
Yes, I have one of those too. She lives very much in the moment and is very directionless. She says whatever pops into her head at the time even if it's contrary to something she was adamant about yesterday. It's very frustrating.
She loves someone one day and hates them with a vengeance the next. You never know where you are with her.

Has she ever been in any kind of therapy? Has the possibility that she might have a personality disorder (e.g. Borderline PD) ever been considered? What you describe above sounds to me like it might be BPD.

hurtloam wrote:
Sometimes she says I'm too fat, sometimes she says I'm not fat. You can't win.

I learned at 17 to stop listening to her.

You have to do what is right for you. Work out the most logical route.

It sucks when your primary support can't be consistent, but I'm 37 now and I'm still alive, live on my own, have a job.

It's great that you were able to accomplish that.


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26 Aug 2019, 1:18 am

Bravo5150 wrote:
hurtloam wrote:
Yes, I have one of those too. She lives very much in the moment and is very directionless. She says whatever pops into her head at the time even if it's contrary to something she was adamant about yesterday. It's very frustrating.
She loves someone one day and hates them with a vengeance the next. You never know where you are with her.

Sometimes she says I'm too fat, sometimes she says I'm not fat. You can't win.

I learned at 17 to stop listening to her.

You have to do what is right for you. Work out the most logical route.

It sucks when your primary support can't be consistent, but I'm 37 now and I'm still alive, live on my own, have a job.

Do you have some other older experienced person you can go to for advice?



What is your secret in terms of experiencing gaslighting from others? I seem to be in a catch 22 in the sense of if I deal with my mom, she uses gaslighting tactics against me, if I try to avoid her then others gaslight me about how they don't want to deal with me unless I go through a parent first, and my dad is deceased.



That's tough. I left home at 21.

Why won't others deal with you without your Mom. Can your Dad help or an Aunt or Uncle?



hurtloam
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26 Aug 2019, 1:21 am

Mona Pereth wrote:
hurtloam wrote:
Yes, I have one of those too. She lives very much in the moment and is very directionless. She says whatever pops into her head at the time even if it's contrary to something she was adamant about yesterday. It's very frustrating.
She loves someone one day and hates them with a vengeance the next. You never know where you are with her.

Has she ever been in any kind of therapy? Has the possibility that she might have a personality disorder (e.g. Borderline PD) ever been considered? What you describe above sounds to me like it might be BPD.


Oh there's more wrong with her than that. She actually wears a tin foil hat. Not joking.

People who don't think anything is wrong with them won't go to therapy.



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26 Aug 2019, 7:14 am

hurtloam wrote:
Bravo5150 wrote:
hurtloam wrote:
Yes, I have one of those too. She lives very much in the moment and is very directionless. She says whatever pops into her head at the time even if it's contrary to something she was adamant about yesterday. It's very frustrating.
She loves someone one day and hates them with a vengeance the next. You never know where you are with her.

Sometimes she says I'm too fat, sometimes she says I'm not fat. You can't win.

I learned at 17 to stop listening to her.

You have to do what is right for you. Work out the most logical route.

It sucks when your primary support can't be consistent, but I'm 37 now and I'm still alive, live on my own, have a job.

Do you have some other older experienced person you can go to for advice?



What is your secret in terms of experiencing gaslighting from others? I seem to be in a catch 22 in the sense of if I deal with my mom, she uses gaslighting tactics against me, if I try to avoid her then others gaslight me about how they don't want to deal with me unless I go through a parent first, and my dad is deceased.



That's tough. I left home at 21.

Why won't others deal with you without your Mom. Can your Dad help or an Aunt or Uncle?


My dad is dead, aunts and uncles on his side seem to hate me, aunts and uncle on her side keep pushing me back to deal with her.



Mona Pereth
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14 Sep 2019, 3:04 pm

Aspie1 wrote:
Old news. Talk therapists gaslight their patients all the time. I think they learn to do it in therapy school, where it's called "helping a 'client' get past resistance". Which includes lying. Which, in the minds of therapists, is anything and everything that goes against their personal opinions or academic training. For example, if they believe that all patients must gush about feelings like telenovela actors, any answers deviating from that are "lies" or "resistance". Plus, it's easier to just gaslight a patient into complying with their beliefs, rather than making an effort to understand their patients. And pat yourself on the back for being helpful, of course.

My therapist always said something like this: "How did that make you feel?" / "This and that." / "You didn't feel that; try again." So I would, only to be accused of lying. Then, when I'd get fed up and tell a complete lie, she's praise for, wait for it... being open with my feelings. After sessions like this, I'd sneak my parents' whiskey just to calm down before bedtime. I was 12. In high school, when I started needing more alcohol, I resorted to buying cooking wine in the Italian food aisle. It tasted nasty, but did the job. I drink to this day.

I'm very sorry to hear that you had such an awful therapist! And, yes, there are some really horrible therapists out there. But not all therapists are that bad, and some actually do help their clients. Were that not the case, the entire profession would have gone out of business long ago.


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17 Sep 2019, 7:17 am

Mona Pereth wrote:
I'm very sorry to hear that you had such an awful therapist! And, yes, there are some really horrible therapists out there. But not all therapists are that bad, and some actually do help their clients. Were that not the case, the entire profession would have gone out of business long ago.

Or maybe the reason why the therapy profession is still around, is because therapists are good at NOT being helpful. They tantalize the patient and dangle the solutions just out of his/her reach, so that he/he would keep coming back to get that elusive solution, be it an answer to a question or an antidepressant referral. Sisyphus's task, basically. Only the therapist will never give it out, because that would kill their revenue stream. And if they notice a patient getting happier on his/her own, they'll find a way to dredge up sad emotions, as to retraumatize the patient and keep him/her coming back "to feel better".

If anything, if therapists were as helpful as they should be, the whole profession would quickly cannibalize itself.