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auntblabby
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18 Sep 2019, 1:32 am

it is only a fair and apt comparison, to be limited to us versus the rest of the west. size is a false concern here.



The_Walrus
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18 Sep 2019, 6:58 am

Antrax wrote:
auntblabby wrote:
getting hit by a bus would hurt big-time. i'd rather expire in my sleep. anyways, average working joes living in scandinavia have more of the benefits of wealth [as experienced by wealthy americans] such as high-quality health and dental care, high quality child care, high quality infrastructure, widespread ultra-high-speed internet- even if they don't have the same high amuuurican richie rich incomes. so wealth in amuuurica only insures that the wealthy here have those things at the same level as ordinary scandinavian citizens.


Norway has a population of 5.2 million. Sweden has a population of 9.9 million. Denmark 5.7 million, and Finland 5.5 million.

Combined these countries have a population ~ 24 million which is 2/3rds that of Canada and less than 1/10th of the U.S. population.

The U.S. has a population of 330 milllion. Comparable countries include:

Indonesia: 264 million
Pakistan: 210 million
Brazil: 210 million
Nigeria: 209 million

Everyone else is either 4x the US population (China, India), or less than half (Bangladesh, 161 million).

Please inform me which country operating at a similar scale to the U.S. we should emulate?

While size and geography and demographics all pose challenges to the US that aren't posed to other countries, I think you're simplifying this more than you usually do.

Compare the USA to the European Union, for example. The EU has ~515m, the EU-27 has ~450m. Of course there are extremely deprived areas in the EU, mostly in former communist countries as well as geographically isolated areas: Image

Sorry I'm meandering somewhat. But anyhow, despite areas of great deprivation, a population larger than the US but broadly within the same ballpark, several large and dense metropolises, and geographically isolated areas like Sicily, Cyprus, and Lapland, it's in pretty good shape.

And just as the EU is broken up into countries, the USA is broken up into states.

California's population is about the same as Canada's, but much denser. Texas's population is about the same as Australia. Michigan's population is about the same as Sweden. Wisconsin and Minnesota are comparable to Finland and Denmark.

One issue is that the USA has a much greater extent of wealth redistribution than the EU. The federal US budget is about $4.7trn, whereas the EU budget is only about $160bn. Someone from Minnesota spends much more of their money helping the poor in the deep south or rural Midwest than someone in Denmark spends on Hungary. So breaking the US down into states doesn't work as well as breaking the EU down into countries.

A few points for consideration that unfortunately I'm not going to be able to elaborate on as much as I'd like:

- US states tend to be richer than comparable EU countries
- US states tend to provide fewer services than comparable EU countries
- The USA has a shorter life expectancy than the EU, as do comparable states/countries
- The United States is much, much richer, both in raw and per capita terms, than Indonesia, Pakistan, Brazil, or Nigeria.



Antrax
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18 Sep 2019, 11:21 am

auntblabby wrote:
it is only a fair and apt comparison, to be limited to us versus the rest of the west. size is a false concern here.


My background is in chemical engineering, the difference between chemistry and chemical engineering is scale. What works at a 1L lab-scale reaction, doesn't necessarilly work at a 100L pilot reactor, which in turn doesn't necessarilly work at a 40,000L industrial reactor. The why is a bit technical and complicated, so I won't try to explain it unless asked. Scientifically in the natural world scale matters. I have no reason to believe it doesn't in the human world.


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Antrax
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18 Sep 2019, 11:58 am

The_Walrus wrote:
Antrax wrote:
auntblabby wrote:
getting hit by a bus would hurt big-time. i'd rather expire in my sleep. anyways, average working joes living in scandinavia have more of the benefits of wealth [as experienced by wealthy americans] such as high-quality health and dental care, high quality child care, high quality infrastructure, widespread ultra-high-speed internet- even if they don't have the same high amuuurican richie rich incomes. so wealth in amuuurica only insures that the wealthy here have those things at the same level as ordinary scandinavian citizens.


Norway has a population of 5.2 million. Sweden has a population of 9.9 million. Denmark 5.7 million, and Finland 5.5 million.

Combined these countries have a population ~ 24 million which is 2/3rds that of Canada and less than 1/10th of the U.S. population.

The U.S. has a population of 330 milllion. Comparable countries include:

Indonesia: 264 million
Pakistan: 210 million
Brazil: 210 million
Nigeria: 209 million

Everyone else is either 4x the US population (China, India), or less than half (Bangladesh, 161 million).

Please inform me which country operating at a similar scale to the U.S. we should emulate?

While size and geography and demographics all pose challenges to the US that aren't posed to other countries, I think you're simplifying this more than you usually do.

Compare the USA to the European Union, for example. The EU has ~515m, the EU-27 has ~450m. Of course there are extremely deprived areas in the EU, mostly in former communist countries as well as geographically isolated areas: Image

Sorry I'm meandering somewhat. But anyhow, despite areas of great deprivation, a population larger than the US but broadly within the same ballpark, several large and dense metropolises, and geographically isolated areas like Sicily, Cyprus, and Lapland, it's in pretty good shape.

And just as the EU is broken up into countries, the USA is broken up into states.

California's population is about the same as Canada's, but much denser. Texas's population is about the same as Australia. Michigan's population is about the same as Sweden. Wisconsin and Minnesota are comparable to Finland and Denmark.

One issue is that the USA has a much greater extent of wealth redistribution than the EU. The federal US budget is about $4.7trn, whereas the EU budget is only about $160bn. Someone from Minnesota spends much more of their money helping the poor in the deep south or rural Midwest than someone in Denmark spends on Hungary. So breaking the US down into states doesn't work as well as breaking the EU down into countries.

A few points for consideration that unfortunately I'm not going to be able to elaborate on as much as I'd like:

- US states tend to be richer than comparable EU countries
- US states tend to provide fewer services than comparable EU countries
- The USA has a shorter life expectancy than the EU, as do comparable states/countries
- The United States is much, much richer, both in raw and per capita terms, than Indonesia, Pakistan, Brazil, or Nigeria.


A fair criticism, although in general people compare the US as a whole to Denmark, Sweden, and Norway (or Canada, or Australia) and not to the EU as a whole.

I do want to address a few of your points:

Quote:
- US states tend to be richer than comparable EU countries
- US states tend to provide fewer services than comparable EU countries


The free market argument is that these two are not unrelated.

Quote:
- The USA has a shorter life expectancy than the EU, as do comparable states/countries


The assumption here is that government expenditure in healthcare results in life expectancy changes.

Italy spends $3,239 per capita on health and has a life expectancy of 82.5 years.

Spain spends $2,966 per capita on health and has a life expectancy of 82.9 years.

Denmark spends $4,782 per capita on health and has a life expectancy of 80.7 years.

Norway spends $6,347 per capita on health and has a life expectancy of 82.5 years.

The UK spends $3,347 per capita on health and has a life expectancy of 80.9 years.

Brits spend the same as Italians to live a year less. Norwegians spend twice as much to live the same. Italians spend more than Spaniards but live half a year less. Danes spend 25% more than Brits and significantly more than Spainiards and Italians to live less than all of the above.

In the U.S. life expectancy also varies widely by region. Minnesotans live 81 years on average while Alabamans live 75.4 years on average.

My conclusion from the European internal comparisons is that factors like geography, culture, etc. influence life expectancy greatly as opposed to straight expenditure. Thus any fair comparison of life expectancy would have to correct for these factors, which is a very difficult correction to do.


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auntblabby
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18 Sep 2019, 7:24 pm

the point i made that was ignored, was that working class folk in general have it MUCH BETTER in places such as northern europe, the commonwealth nations, than they do here in amuuurica.



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18 Sep 2019, 7:31 pm

^^^^ I agree.


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auntblabby
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18 Sep 2019, 7:40 pm

there is even more upwards social mobility in those nations now, whereas the righties here used to crow that we were the land of opportunity for everybody, but that is clearly not the case these days. the only social mobility most average americans have now, is downward.



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19 Sep 2019, 9:57 am

Large Houses Reflect Large Mortgages; Huge Trucks in Trump Town USA (Metro Area of the Panhandle of Florida) Do the
Same as far as Car Loans almost as Big as the Mortgage I paid off on my Home Years ago in A 'Forest Bathing' BackYard Way of Natural Bliss; Nature doesn't get anymore Beautiful than my Backyard; why Leave Heaven for Staycation elsewhere... (true though, it's really Hot; and we will use some rain; chances Are Mother Nature will fix that
Issue with some Tropical Weather like Texas is experiencing with Close to 40 Inches of Rain from a Bit of
an Imelda Depression).

I Found a Home In Nature; Size of Home Matters Not; Nature's Breath is Beyond Infinity in Measure of Human Wealth
of Peace and Harmony. I pay no dues to People Forcing me to put Pesticide on my Yard; I view Dandelions in
Spring; Tall More Golden Colorful as they exercise all their Natural Wild Flower Weed Beauty for me to see.

What Poetry/Dance/Song is THere in Material Wealth; What Happiness is 'THeir' in Material Wealth; In General What Does
the 'God of Money/Wealth' Convey as Far as Wealth of Human Soul; Not much of anything; Not Much of Anything once
one Reaches the General Science Standard of $75,000 for A Family to meet Basic Subsistence Needs to Survive
With Food, Drink, And Shelter to accommodate Environmental Challenges Like Ice and Heat.

Meh; Dance, Song, And Art; Yes, Agape Love Bring me Heaven Within and to give and share for free
doing the Least Harm to Others and the Rest of Nature I Truly Worship All With Love and Name God+ too.

Meanwhile, You Cannot Eat Money; But it Will Eat Your Soul and Bring Down the Heaven of the Forest, Beach
And Leaves of Grass too. Wealth, in General, For What We See on the Outside Conveys a Certain Hell of Soul
that is Beyond all Measure of what Those Who Seek and Find Wealth in Our Naked Nature Within, Inside, Outside,
Above, So Below All Around Find All For Free; No Cost but all the Colors We Co-Create of Soul Breath Wind We Actually 'See More than 'Concrete'.

It may be Hard to Believe, 'Horatio and Ripley'; but if i could Give 'Trumps' Just one Teaspoon Drip of the Taste of my Soul;
'They' Likely would Strip off the excess of $75,000 and Give it all Away; 'Seeing' How Blind to the Colors of Heaven they've Always Been As Love Seeks to Give and Share so much more than Take and Hoard. In General, Agape Love Seeks to Color Souls For Free; Free Will that is real in terms of Autotelic Flow of Mastering the Regulation of Emotions and Integration of Our Senses; this is no Woo; Even Science in Limited Ways of Brain Scans Will Measure This Kingdom of Heaven Within, Now. Don't limit Your Research to just Concrete Stuff; there is research on what makes us tick up and down too.

After that With Enough Shelter And Subsistence; Life's A Breeze and Well Worth Being Born and Dying For too
with total acceptance of Just the way Love Breathes In and Out in a Dance And Song of Life that is Poetry
of Ever Changing and Evolving Colors Within to Feel and Sense so much more than Empty Shells of Concrete Words (Facts); true, though, I enjoy a bit of "Mental Masturbation" now and then too.... Rather Move, Connect and Co-Create though, to Feel Soul Eternally Now Ascending Transcending Where There is No Cost; A Naked Flow of Dance With Sand and Sun is Totally Free and Brings Heaven within in Autotelic Flow; once again 'Class', Even Evidenced as a Real Meditative Fountain of Youth Regenerating Gray Matter In Brains; Reversing the Practical Effects of Aging. Hehe; Wanna See me Leg Press 1340 American Pounds on YouTube at 90 Degrees, 12 Reps for 100 Seconds at age 59; True, The Moving Meditation does more than Regenerate Brains; and again, doesn't cost a Stitch of Cultural Clothing as the Wealth Lives Within; Conveying the Empirical Results of a Real Fountain of Youth too From Top to Bottom of Our Humanity in Flesh and Blood Real.

Oh; the Poverty OF 'Trumps'; So Far from Human Potential Set Free out of Green Bills to 'Leaves of Grass' Free.


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