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Dear_one
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01 Jan 2020, 12:27 am

EzraS wrote:
Zyg wrote:
I am, quite frankly, very surprised that at WP, with all the focus and brain power we have here, people think that "Anthropogenic Climate Change" is actually a catastrophic crisis.

I highly suggest that those of you whom are scientifically minded start looking at the IPCC's actual reports and data, and the climate science itself, and start ignoring the media and politicians on this one.

I was a card carrying believer in 2004 to the point of buying carbon credits to offset my carbon footprint. I am not anymore, now that I have had the chance to see 100% of their predictions fall flat, and I have looked deeply into the mathematics, models and politics behind all of it.


I get the impression that most of the people who go on about climate change only have a rudimentary understanding of it, that doesn't really extend beyond what they read in The Guardian and similar sources. I think they let themselves be conditioned to not challenge it, to not have any doubts. And to denounce anyone who does.


Ahh, I was wondering where the Thunberg threads had gone. There are, of course, some people agitating for climate action who can't follow the science themselves, but the IPCC numbers are truly alarming to me. The Banff Glacier used to end in a beautiful, turquoise blue lake, and when I first visited, there was a fine old stone hotel for enjoying the view. Now, it only shows a rubble field and a distant scrap of ice. Our grandfathers knew that glaciers don't move, but now, watching them break up has become a tourist treat.
My AS mother inspired me to live experimentally because she thought that the A-bomb had made peace imperative. After a decade trying to tackle that issue, I saw better odds of my talents making a difference on oil conservation and have focussed on that since. The reasons have only become more compelling over the decades - now, a "Nuclear Winter" is looking more like an antidote than a threat.
When the methane started boiling out of the permafrost and the sea floor, we should have gone to full wartime measures to stop a runaway positive feedback loop. To me, the sensation is like riding a bicycle over a long hill. First, it seems as if nothing will change, but then it starts to get easier. Eventually, you reach a point where you can coast. At first, you just creep along, but it keeps building speed until you may lose control. In the analogy, we can now coast at almost a walking pace, and we need to turn around and start pulling CO2 back out of the air. Even 1C rise has proven to be too much over the long term.
I have watched the debates over the years, and every time, representatives from the carbon companies have managed to reduce the estimated problems being announced, but they were actively planning for the changes themselves, based on their own research. Now, measured changes are much closer to the original, un-lobbied predictions.
I have been enjoying a web-cam at my own latitude, but about 12 hours around the earth, in Siberia. Until this summer, our weather was averaging very similar, but since then, they have been far warmer most days. I think the ice fields that feed our continental rivers also acted like lane markers for the prevailing winds, and those have now shifted. This puts our food supply at great risk, because crops need predictable weather.
I'd wish you all a Happy New Year, and decade, but I prefer better odds. Instead, I hope you will be kind to refugees, and have the luck to be able to.



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01 Jan 2020, 1:02 am

I say go greta, do your thing.

Like seriously I find her to be a pretty cool kid, I like what she is doing and I fully support her. I do kinda wish I had the guts she had because I have no idea how I would stand up for that stuff and shes just a teenage kid doing it, I hate people saying she's a puppet and this and that. Like I cared about some of that stuff when I was a kid to, and I always got shut down by the adults..seems like in her case her parents and other adult people around her didn't discourage her and if anything encouraged her. She's not a freaking puppet she's a smart kid who knows what is going on with the planet and she is trying to help people.

I tried for a while as a younger kid but no one wanted to hear it, seems Greta was able to get some people listening....and she is just 16 I am 30 but I find her amazing. Like I sure as hell never sailed across the ocean to speak about global warming and pollution without using air travel due to the potential environmental cost. I mean yeah for this young girl to do all of that she probably does have some help from her parents who from what i understand support her cause. But so what who else is sailing across the ocean on an economic yahcht without all the fancy housings of what people usually picture about a yahcht at the age 16. I mean to me seems she must care about the issues because that is her focus and she's not going out and committing mischief she's actually doing things to help the world, IDk if people realize how much she is probably giving up to do this. You think she can just have a normal social life with friends after all this world-wide recognition? I mean she's just a teenager, she is sacrificing so much to do her thing...she will never have a normal teenage life after this there is no way she can and yet she still stands strong.



Dear_one
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01 Jan 2020, 1:18 am

Sweetleaf wrote:
I say go greta, do your thing.
<snip> IDk if people realize how much she is probably giving up to do this. You think she can just have a normal social life with friends after all this world-wide recognition? I mean she's just a teenager, she is sacrificing so much to do her thing...she will never have a normal teenage life after this there is no way she can and yet she still stands strong.

Well, she's reacting to the prospects of having a normal adult life. "Normal" is toast for us anyway, and now it is for everyone, for different reasons. Perhaps humanity will learn to ignore psychopathic leaders.



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01 Jan 2020, 7:02 pm

EzraS wrote:

I get the impression that most of the people who go on about climate change only have a rudimentary understanding of it, that doesn't really extend beyond what they read in The Guardian and similar sources. I think they let themselves be conditioned to not challenge it, to not have any doubts. And to denounce anyone who does.


I think lack of detailed knowledge applies to both many climate change believers and many climate change cynics . Sensationalism from both camps , when it comes to media input , stifles intelligent debate amongst the general population about the subject .


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08 Jan 2020, 4:18 am

Article by Autistic arguing why going back to school would be better for her Autism
Alessandro van den Berg is an economics teacher in the Netherlands.

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To begin, for the purposes of this discussion, I will not be commenting on the content of Greta’s climate activism itself, even though it has likely come to considerably define her life. I am in no way claiming to be a climate scientist and—partially for this reason—I will refrain from making any definitive statements about climate change, as either a scientific or political concept. What I am familiar with are teenagers like Greta Thunberg and the significance of attending school at such an age. As a fellow person with autism, I hope to make clear why educational support—and going to school—is so essential to the lives of people with autism.

In Gabriel Andrade’s recent Merion West piece concerning Greta, Andrade greatly acknowledges that the approach Greta represents — the use of a script-reading child — should not be practiced when a society is trying to engage with a complex issue, like global warming. “Angry children who read scripts but are not really capable of answering questions or engaging in debate” Andrade writes, “do not bring much to the table other than feel-good hipness.” Greta might be a very intelligent girl — whether or not you include her script reading skills when judging her intellect — but that doesn’t make school redundant. Greta’s father, Svante Thunberg, somewhat agrees and questions her decision to leave school. Like most fathers, Greta’s father supports his daughter in what she is doing—but for reasons other than the climate: “I did all these things, I knew they were the right thing to do…but I didn’t do it to save the climate, I did it to save my child.”

Greta has been rather outspoken about her disorder — Asperger Syndrome (AS)— and perceives it as a “superpower.” Few would discourage her from seeing her condition in a positive light. I, myself, am an advocate of this type of optimism—partly for its suggestion that there is a positive side to autism, something that certainly is the case. Nevertheless, one should be careful with assuming that said “superpower” is a fixed feature of the autism spectrum. That is, individuals with autism shouldn’t approve of the diabolical saying: “You’re perfect as you are.” The Canadian psychologist, Jordan B. Peterson, among others, has also articulated a version of this idea.

We often overlook a key characteristic of autism and disorders alike: it’s developmental quality. The concept of a developmental disorder should imply that someone who is diagnosed with such a disorder can make reasonable progress during his or her lifetime. Features that are associated with these disorders are in no way all static, and, actually, many who deny the crucial essence of their (or their children’s) disorder ruin its betterment. Equally detrimental is the denial of parents when facing the diagnosis of their child’s developmental disorder. Aside from the increasing acceptance and prevalence of such disorders, we can’t justify parents (and children) denying any claims about these disorders which, as a result, partly squander the capacity for the person to improve his or her symptoms

Fortunately, Greta’s parents are not members of the full autism denial group; however, by failing to insist that she attend school they are impeding her development. In an educational environment, Greta can actually apply her intelligence to pick up skills like debating and how to effectively compile knowledge regarding her field of interest. I have discussed before (at Merion West and Medium) the fixations and interests people with this form of autism hold ; I have called them, “Meta-interests.” As far as we know, Greta does not show her interest to be on the science behind climate change; rather her interest focuses squarely on the activism. Any deviations from this subject will result in a lack of knowledge. Like Andrade already mentioned, these situations underly Greta’s inability to answer rather simple questions properly.

The interviews Greta gives are often anything but spontaneous. This only results in Greta responding with generic answers without bringing anything valuable (or new) to the table. No wonder. The science behind climate change is incredibly complex, much like proverbial “rocket science” itself, and we would both fool Greta and ourselves by considering her “superpower” as a possible answer to our global problem. In the past, there have been many prominent thinkers who supposedly had a form of autism (e.g. Nikola Tesla, Charles Darwin, Henry Cavendish, etc.). However, this does not suggest that anyone who falls on the autism spectrum has some kind of “golden touch”— determined to produce an exceptional piece of work. Different does not equal beneficial.

If someone like Greta doesn’t have the facts at hand regarding climate science, why would she be the one chosen to persuade others regarding the actual urgency of climate change instead of a real climate scientist? The reason lies in her persuasion tactic—or that of her puppeteer. Partly because of her young age and autism, her credentials could be non-existent. The only component at stake is her way of using passionate emotions when distributing her message. Important to note is that Greta (and her message) is acting on a political playing field. That implies—as Crispin Sartwell notes in his December, 2019 Quillette essay—that these statements that Greta is making rest on visceral commitment. Instead of a rational component coming into play, the statements fixate on emotions alone. Sartwell continues by explaining the effectiveness of these emotion-based statements, instead of statements based on factual knowledge:

“And to persuade you to do likewise [e.g. For you to believe the earth is in great threat as a result of global warming], I am going to have to express passion, not present a series of practical syllogisms or scientific papers. No one’s politics is based on deliberative rationality. And no one’s politics is based on science, of course.”

With this in mind, may we perceive Greta as the perfect candidate for the job? Not exactly. She admits that because of her Asperger syndrome she perceives things black or white: “You can’t be a little bit sustainable; either you’re sustainable or you’re not sustainable.” These complex issues that she is involved with need gray areas. Without the knowledge needed to address these complicated issues like climate change, we will not accomplish much besides a 17-year-old child telling you if your company meets her conditions of sustainability.

Instead of occupying herself with these — what I would call — unproductive activities, Greta might redirect these same efforts towards her own development. One way to explore this development is their adherence to rules. Deborah Barnbaum’s 2008 book The Ethics of Autism examines the morality of autistic people through the use of philosophy. Something we (people with autism) struggle with is our ability to show empathy towards others. What follows are often complicated social interactions in the short term, as well as in the long term. Barnbaum, for example, mentions the German philosopher Immanuel Kant as a way to address the capability for morality. Kant argued that the preeminent principle that personal morality is built upon is the Categorical imperatives— simply stated, a set of rules that cannot be deviated from.

This way, people on the spectrum do not need any empathy to be moral; they need rules — and perhaps someone to help them to set up and interpret those rules. It might look like some sham-morality that is being taught to people with autism, and I cannot disagree. Nevertheless, from my own experience, I can state—with confidence—that this is much better than not having any rules to guide one through difficult situations ,  including social ones. One of the leading researches in the field of autism, Simon Baron-Cohen, recognizes this way of development. His observations and research not only indicate a person with autism’s ability to be moral but, “even [to] be hyper-moral, wanting all of us to follow the rules in a precise way and to the nth degree. Some become the whistle-blowers when they spot the rules being broken.” The added preference for rules makes it possible for people with autism to accomplish similar goals as neurotypicals but by taking a different route to Rome. Baron-Cohen concludes that:

“While many ‘neurotypical’ people arrive at their morality via a very visceral empathic route, responding emotionally to another person’s distress, other people (and this includes many with Asperger’s syndrome) arrive at their moral code through a logical route based on rules (systemizing).”

Lastly, as I’ve stated repeatedly, the science behind climate change has no business being played with by teenagers. Felix Kirby explains this in detail in his April, 2019 Quillette article “Teenage Climate-Change Protestors Have No Idea What They’re Protesting”:

“Global-warming research is a hugely complex field, and it’s unlikely that any ordinary person — let alone a minor — would have any real grasp of it. Nor would they be able to appreciate the uncertainty that characterizes our understanding of how today’s human activity will affect the future state of the earth’s climate.”

For those teenagers interested in the subject of climate change, there should be information available—or perhaps lessons conducted that illustrate the data surrounding climate change in an accessible manner. Skipping school is—in no way—a viable option, especially for those whose further development is vital in the adolescent stage. Despite everything, Greta has made a great first step by perceiving her Asperger’s as a beneficial factor instead of a constant restriction.

At the end of the day, Greta (and people with autism in general) wish to operate on a neurotypical level in society—just like anybody else but without being neurotypical. Being able to accomplish this requires some assistance, preferably in an environment where individuals who have some expertise with autism can assist her with her development and possibly where she can explore her interests. This — the ability of a disorder to develop — should not imply, in any way, the existence of a complete “cure.” To this day, no antidote to autism has been found—only methods of improvement. Some autistic features will not advance in any way—no matter how many rules might be applied. Instead of ending on a pessimistic note, I will observe that the fact that Greta is unable to efficiently understand or address climate change does not imply that she is unable to accomplish other worthwhile things. So, I would recommend her many followers, including Slavoj Žižek, support her for something else that she might be able to do, something, this time, she might be able to do without a script

While I do share the authors concern that her being out of school and the constant adulation about her “superpowers” is harmful I find some of the authors arguments bizarre. From a political point of view she has been the “perfect candidate” for her cause. I find it hard to imagine the “climate emergency” being one of the top issues without her. The authors aversion to her “scripted” responses is wrong on two levels. Scripting is both an autism trait and an effective coping mechanism for autistic people. Also politicians activist etc give scripted answers constantly and most are not experts on the subject.


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Dear_one
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08 Jan 2020, 7:41 am

^^ Greta is not trying to optimize her own education. She is trying to regain hope for the future viability of her home planet.
I don't know why this issue needs her for publicity, but she is certainly willing to give up her comforts for it, since she can't ignore it like most people. I read a brief newspaper article on Peak Oil when it came out in '57, and planned my life around it. If common sense were more common, I'd have had a great career, and we would not be in crisis now.



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08 Aug 2020, 5:43 pm

‘I Am Greta’: Release date, plot, cast, trailer and all you need to know about Hulu’s documentary on Greta Thunberg

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Release date
‘I Am Greta’ will premiere on Hulu on November 13, 2020.

Plot
In accordance to the official synopsis by Hulu, ‘I Am Greta’ follows “younger activist Greta Thunberg, a 15-year-old scholar in Sweden, began a college strike for the local weather as her query for adults was, ‘if you do not care about my future on earth, why ought to I care about my future in class?’ Inside months, her strike developed into a world motion because the quiet teenage woman on the autism spectrum turns into a world-famous activist. The documentary follows Greta’s heroism and ardour in preventing for local weather change.”

Creators
The documentary is produced by Cecilia Nessen and Frederik Heinig through B-Reel Movies and directed by Nathan Grossman. In accordance to stories, the group behind ‘I Am Greta’ has been following Thunberg from her early faculty strike in Stockholm all the way in which to parliaments and large worldwide protests, documenting her mission to make the world perceive the urgency of the local weather disaster.

Trailers
There isn’t any official trailer for the Hulu documentary but. MEA WorldWide will replace this text when it’s launched.


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08 Aug 2020, 6:52 pm

From the description (bold and italics mine): "The teenage local weather activist quickly grew to become a family title following her very first protest exterior Sweden’s parliament constructing in 2018."

I know the weather in Sweden is bad, but to protest it is a bit much...

Or perhaps she is a climate activist...



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09 Aug 2020, 6:46 am

Jiheisho wrote:
From the description (bold and italics mine): "The teenage local weather activist quickly grew to become a family title following her very first protest exterior Sweden’s parliament constructing in 2018."

I know the weather in Sweden is bad, but to protest it is a bit much...

Or perhaps she is a climate activist...


I think I detect a machine translation here. Back when computers were huge, some people thought that if they could use automated language conversions, International relations might run much better, without the bias if human translators. After all, before Hiroshima, Japan had indicated that they were seriously considering surrender, but the American translator assumed that they were using the phrase sarcastically. Anyway, a big effort was put into the first English-Russian converter, and as a test, it was asked to translate "The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak" into Russian, and then back to English. It returned as "The wine is good, but the meat has spoiled."



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09 Aug 2020, 10:19 am

I'm not a fan of Thunberg, personally. As far as her being disabled goes, I think the way she presents her disabilities is strange - saying things like attending activism rallies cured her sensory problems or saying that she can defy her selective mutism when it's "necessary." It just seems really convenient, and I don't like the fact that people who don't know anything about these conditions will think that she is indicative of the norm. She's absolutely not, and I wish this was acknowledged instead of making her the poster child for autism. Disability erasure is a serious problem, and it doesn't help when people within the community promote it.

I also don't like her work as an activist. Her arguments are usually along the lines of, "The problem exists! The adults need to fix it!" Which, yeah, is something that a lot of people refuse to be cognizant of, despite the best authorities raising the alarm (though not as loud an alarm as she claims). But screaming at your willfully ignorant opponent doesn't seem like an effective way of dealing with the issue or spreading awareness. And solutions are not readily available as she seems to assume. You need to either find a way to make your goal/message appealing and beneficial to your opponents or work around them. Call out climate activists and their lobbyists for corruption. Boycott funding for unnecessary academia; those resources could be put to better use. There are so many "unpleasant" ways we could be making a difference sooner (working around business interests), but no one wants to assume responsibility and accept the costs. Most of all: If climate change is the biggest threat faced by our generation, tell the youth to stop getting art and history degrees and devote themselves to helping the cause by going into the sciences.

I wanted a history degree, but I realized that I wouldn't be able to actually help anyone in that career. There are more urgently needed skills that I am capable of providing. Meanwhile, most of my peers are going in for liberal arts degrees and aiming for fields in entertainment and self-serving academia. Why? If this is as serious as Thunberg claims and progress continues at a snail's pace (as it will), we should not expect the crisis to be averted. Our generation (Z) needs to be ready to handle damage control instead. Right now, her campaign consists of yelling at adults, telling them to fix the problem. But at the same time, we (the youth) are not preparing for the inevitable consequences of their inaction. That's just hypocritical. WE have obligations, too, and they are not best served by refusing to do our homework.


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09 Aug 2020, 1:31 pm

AceofPens wrote:
I'm not a fan of Thunberg, personally. As far as her being disabled goes, I think the way she presents her disabilities is strange - saying things like attending activism rallies cured her sensory problems or saying that she can defy her selective mutism when it's "necessary." It just seems really convenient, and I don't like the fact that people who don't know anything about these conditions will think that she is indicative of the norm. She's absolutely not, and I wish this was acknowledged instead of making her the poster child for autism. Disability erasure is a serious problem, and it doesn't help when people within the community promote it.

I also don't like her work as an activist. Her arguments are usually along the lines of, "The problem exists! The adults need to fix it!" Which, yeah, is something that a lot of people refuse to be cognizant of, despite the best authorities raising the alarm (though not as loud an alarm as she claims). But screaming at your willfully ignorant opponent doesn't seem like an effective way of dealing with the issue or spreading awareness. And solutions are not readily available as she seems to assume. You need to either find a way to make your goal/message appealing and beneficial to your opponents or work around them. Call out climate activists and their lobbyists for corruption. Boycott funding for unnecessary academia; those resources could be put to better use. There are so many "unpleasant" ways we could be making a difference sooner (working around business interests), but no one wants to assume responsibility and accept the costs. Most of all: If climate change is the biggest threat faced by our generation, tell the youth to stop getting art and history degrees and devote themselves to helping the cause by going into the sciences.

I wanted a history degree, but I realized that I wouldn't be able to actually help anyone in that career. There are more urgently needed skills that I am capable of providing. Meanwhile, most of my peers are going in for liberal arts degrees and aiming for fields in entertainment and self-serving academia. Why? If this is as serious as Thunberg claims and progress continues at a snail's pace (as it will), we should not expect the crisis to be averted. Our generation (Z) needs to be ready to handle damage control instead. Right now, her campaign consists of yelling at adults, telling them to fix the problem. But at the same time, we (the youth) are not preparing for the inevitable consequences of their inaction. That's just hypocritical. WE have obligations, too, and they are not best served by refusing to do our homework.


Actually, she does practice what she believes. She does not fly and has stopped her parents from flying. She does not buy new products, when she does shop. She is quite serious in her own personal life to minimize her climate impact. And she is right, those in power are the ones that need to solve this problem and people should listen to the science. She understood her extraordinary position and was able to take a clear message to those in power and remind them of their responsibility. Her activism has been very powerful in galvanizing support for climate policy. Name one other teenager that has had more impact?

As far as whether her autism is somehow not "real" autism and her struggles are not actual, nothing I have heard her speak about suggests that. And people misunderstand autism, that is not her fault, but their ignorance. But would you prefer Raymond Babbitt or Sheldon Cooper be the poster boy for autism? She has done a great deal in showing the world what autism can look like as well as that autism is not a male condition.

Personally, I think Greta Thunberg has simply been a positive force.



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09 Aug 2020, 2:33 pm

I don't see how Greta can try to improve our situation without making compromises. It is good to use sail power, but it would be better to use a wooden boat with flaxen sails, and still better to have it built by hand using only organic food, etc. etc. To engage with people we all have to use some technology, and try to beat the house odds of making things worse thereby.
I got along fine with just a bicycle for decades, but then bought a car to facilitate my work on developing improved pedal powered vehicles. It didn't work out well yet, but I'm still glad I demonstrated the possibilities.

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09 Aug 2020, 7:32 pm

Jiheisho wrote:
Actually, she does practice what she believes. She does not fly and has stopped her parents from flying. She does not buy new products, when she does shop. She is quite serious in her own personal life to minimize her climate impact. And she is right, those in power are the ones that need to solve this problem and people should listen to the science. She understood her extraordinary position and was able to take a clear message to those in power and remind them of their responsibility. Her activism has been very powerful in galvanizing support for climate policy. Name one other teenager that has had more impact?

As far as whether her autism is somehow not "real" autism and her struggles are not actual, nothing I have heard her speak about suggests that. And people misunderstand autism, that is not her fault, but their ignorance. But would you prefer Raymond Babbitt or Sheldon Cooper be the poster boy for autism? She has done a great deal in showing the world what autism can look like as well as that autism is not a male condition.

Personally, I think Greta Thunberg has simply been a positive force.


When did I say that she doesn't practice what she preaches? My qualm is that what she preaches isn't a very effective way of dealing with the problem. You can't just yell and expect selfish people to shape up and do what's right. And if you can't expect others to do that, you need to step up and take responsibility in their place. That's a large part of what being a mature adult entails - it's how you keep the world moving. I firmly believe that the best way to handle this crisis is to take into our own hands what we CAN control and focus on developing the skills and effective altruism needed to deal with crises that we cannot avert.

I also didn't say that she doesn't have "real" autism - but her case is very mild to the point where she can trot the globe and seemingly vanish her symptoms when she "needs" to. I actually would prefer a more severe case to be the poster child of autism - because, you know, that would better reflect the experiences of the majority. I resent the fact that autism is now promoted as a kind of "superpower" or overall beneficial condition. Using Thunberg as a model for autism awareness is like pointing to a person missing a finger as the poster child of the physically disabled. It makes no sense.

I can name several teenagers who have had a bigger impact on climate change - not least of which is Taylor Wilson, a boy who built a working fusion reactor and has continued to work on solutions to the problem of sustainable energy. Real problems deserve real solutions, not just vague talk. I'll counter your question - What has Thunberg done? She makes a lot of racket, but what actual solutions has she provided? People like to talk about her, but I've yet to hear about something that she has actually accomplished. Everyone already knows that climate change is a hot topic. What has she added to the dialogue, other than sensation? She's not even the first to do that. There was a teenager in the 90s - Severn Suzuki - who was taken up by the media in a similar spirit. Many nations have their own current version of Thunberg, too. We happen to currently be obsessing with this girl because she's sensational (angry), not because she's the best advocate of our generation. There are at least five other teenager activists who better deserve that title.


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10 Aug 2020, 1:01 am

AceofPens wrote:
Jiheisho wrote:
Actually, she does practice what she believes. She does not fly and has stopped her parents from flying. She does not buy new products, when she does shop. She is quite serious in her own personal life to minimize her climate impact. And she is right, those in power are the ones that need to solve this problem and people should listen to the science. She understood her extraordinary position and was able to take a clear message to those in power and remind them of their responsibility. Her activism has been very powerful in galvanizing support for climate policy. Name one other teenager that has had more impact?

As far as whether her autism is somehow not "real" autism and her struggles are not actual, nothing I have heard her speak about suggests that. And people misunderstand autism, that is not her fault, but their ignorance. But would you prefer Raymond Babbitt or Sheldon Cooper be the poster boy for autism? She has done a great deal in showing the world what autism can look like as well as that autism is not a male condition.

Personally, I think Greta Thunberg has simply been a positive force.


When did I say that she doesn't practice what she preaches? My qualm is that what she preaches isn't a very effective way of dealing with the problem. You can't just yell and expect selfish people to shape up and do what's right. And if you can't expect others to do that, you need to step up and take responsibility in their place. That's a large part of what being a mature adult entails - it's how you keep the world moving. I firmly believe that the best way to handle this crisis is to take into our own hands what we CAN control and focus on developing the skills and effective altruism needed to deal with crises that we cannot avert.

I also didn't say that she doesn't have "real" autism - but her case is very mild to the point where she can trot the globe and seemingly vanish her symptoms when she "needs" to. I actually would prefer a more severe case to be the poster child of autism - because, you know, that would better reflect the experiences of the majority. I resent the fact that autism is now promoted as a kind of "superpower" or overall beneficial condition. Using Thunberg as a model for autism awareness is like pointing to a person missing a finger as the poster child of the physically disabled. It makes no sense.

I can name several teenagers who have had a bigger impact on climate change - not least of which is Taylor Wilson, a boy who built a working fusion reactor and has continued to work on solutions to the problem of sustainable energy. Real problems deserve real solutions, not just vague talk. I'll counter your question - What has Thunberg done? She makes a lot of racket, but what actual solutions has she provided? People like to talk about her, but I've yet to hear about something that she has actually accomplished. Everyone already knows that climate change is a hot topic. What has she added to the dialogue, other than sensation? She's not even the first to do that. There was a teenager in the 90s - Severn Suzuki - who was taken up by the media in a similar spirit. Many nations have their own current version of Thunberg, too. We happen to currently be obsessing with this girl because she's sensational (angry), not because she's the best advocate of our generation. There are at least five other teenager activists who better deserve that title.


She gets people to listen. Policy is a dialog. And does she have to be compared? Are you saying that if she can't be the best advocate, at least the advocate you believe she should be, then she should not act? There are all kinds of voices and actions that are needed. Let turn the question around: would it have been better for her not to have brought the issue to public attention?

I will also point out she is a 16/17 year old girl. Why are you suggesting she needs to be your idea of a mature adult? Part of advocacy is calling people out on their hypocrisy and getting others to listen and use their power, like voting, to make the issue relevant. And she has a solution: she want policymakers to listen to the science and for others to be involved in the issue of climate change. And that is the central issue: political will. Unless people are invested enough to start voting and acting in terms of climate policy, all the fine research in alternative energy and climate mitigation will never make it out of the lab or journal. Climate needs to be on the agenda.

She also has done exactly what you suggest. She has done what she has control over. That was the fundamental driver behind her protest.

As far as a representation of autism, from what I have read, her life has not been easy. And she is careful to identify her "superpower" as her moral compass. She does not downplay the negatives of her condition. I am not sure there is a metric to say which autistic people are autistic enough to represent the disorder. I am sure others here are more impacted by their autism than I am. Does that mean I do not have a voice? I can't speak about my experience because others are worse off? I have also traveled extensively. I can tell you that does not eliminate my autism. It does not go away. Yes, I have developed strategies to cope. Outwardly, I might appear fine, but please don't use outward appearance to decide if I am autistic enough. And I understand quite well that compared with others with more severe autism I am "lucky," but not lucky enough were my autism does not impact my life in very real ways. I do not think the severity of Greta's autism invalidates her experience or her voice.

I can tell you dislike Greta. That is clear. I just don't see much more than a personal dislike.



Wolfram87
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10 Aug 2020, 2:03 am

When you don't fly as a consideration to the environment, your position is a bit undermined when you have a whole crew of other people flown to you from multiple locations in order to sail you to where you're going.


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10 Aug 2020, 5:27 am

Wolfram87 wrote:
When you don't fly as a consideration to the environment, your position is a bit undermined when you have a whole crew of other people flown to you from multiple locations in order to sail you to where you're going.

Change is always uneven. At a big Congress Party convention, Gandhi would only eat brown rice, which was a special order at the fancy hotel preferred by most members. Nehru joked to Gandhi "Do you realize how much it is costing us to keep you in poverty?"

Personally, I speculate that Greta's father is also a hero, for arranging spaces for her to recover from overstimulus in, handling the adult chores, and braiding her hair. He too had had other plans.

Pioneering is always subject to your complaint. Henry Ford had his first lathe delivered by horses, and put far more effort into his first cars than it would have taken to even walk the same distance. Space travel is still based on rockets, which are absurdly inefficient machines overall
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If I had my druthers, I'd be off-grid and quite unknown. However, to try to apply my particular talents to helping the world, I had to make several long car trips, and even visit Las Vegas. I have also done trips using only aircraft and bicycle. Once, a rental bike was almost as expensive as a car, and didn't even fit, but it did minimize the impact as much as possible.