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rdos
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14 Nov 2019, 3:57 am

QFT wrote:
rdos wrote:
I find friends first completely unsatisfactory. I want passion in a relationship, and the friendship road will lead to a boring relationship with poor attachment. Suboptimal in every way. A relationship should start with a crush and friendship should be last, not first.


That just begs the question. Why does friendship precludes passion?


Because passion is based on infatuation (past or present), and I cannot get infatuated with a friend.

QFT wrote:
Intuitively, it seems like friendship and passion should go hand by hand: you feel so much in common with your friend, that you become passionate about it!


A friendship is something that is beneficial for both parties, and preferentially without too many emotions. It only continues as long as it is still beneficial. Something that is highly incompatible with a longterm relationship.

QFT wrote:
On the other hand, if you compartmentalize such as "no I can't be a friend because we date", there is nothing passionate about it, just some cold-hearted rules you are trying to follow.


I find "dating" a highly undesirable method for starting a romantic relationship, and I have no rules.



DW_a_mom
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14 Nov 2019, 7:38 pm

Marknis wrote:
Why isn’t anyone replying to me?


Which post? If it's the one on page 3, I can't speak for anyone else, but you already know (or should, I've said it enough) my response to your predicament: MOVE. And I realize you don't feel you have that option. So I'm at a loss on how to help you, to be honest. But I do feel for you and always will.

In regards to your post on page 2, its one of several I was thinking of when I wrote my generalized response on page 3.


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14 Nov 2019, 7:42 pm

rdos wrote:
QFT wrote:
rdos wrote:
I find friends first completely unsatisfactory. I want passion in a relationship, and the friendship road will lead to a boring relationship with poor attachment. Suboptimal in every way. A relationship should start with a crush and friendship should be last, not first.


That just begs the question. Why does friendship precludes passion?


Because passion is based on infatuation (past or present), and I cannot get infatuated with a friend.



I don't agree with this as a generalized statement, that passion is based on infatuation. Passion is something that can grow and develop as you get to know more aspects of a person. I know many couples who weren't attracted to each other when they first met, but became very passionate about each other later. It's about what you are open to.


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QFT
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14 Nov 2019, 9:42 pm

rdos wrote:
QFT wrote:
rdos wrote:
I find friends first completely unsatisfactory. I want passion in a relationship, and the friendship road will lead to a boring relationship with poor attachment. Suboptimal in every way. A relationship should start with a crush and friendship should be last, not first.


That just begs the question. Why does friendship precludes passion?


Because passion is based on infatuation (past or present), and I cannot get infatuated with a friend.


What do you mean by "infaturation"? If you mean just something at the very beginning, how can it last then?

And in any case the question is: why is it easier to be infaturated with a stranger than with a friend? It seems backward.

rdos wrote:
QFT wrote:
Intuitively, it seems like friendship and passion should go hand by hand: you feel so much in common with your friend, that you become passionate about it!


A friendship is something that is beneficial for both parties, and preferentially without too many emotions. It only continues as long as it is still beneficial. Something that is highly incompatible with a longterm relationship.


That sounds more like a user-friend than a real friend. I think in case of real friends they aren't just there to help each other with homework; they are there because they genuinely care about each other. Like if I think of the friends my parents had for several decades, I don't think their friends were helping them get a job or anything -- nor do I think they helped their friends get a job either -- yet they were still friends, despite the lack of real tangible help. I guess they liked to spend time together -- in their case they liked to go to backpacking trips -- in fact thats what started their friendship. I guess for other people its different. But the scenario of "some" common interest -- not necesserely anything I have specific examples of -- is what brings people together, and then they remain friends because they grew together over time. At least thats how I think of it.

rdos wrote:
QFT wrote:
On the other hand, if you compartmentalize such as "no I can't be a friend because we date", there is nothing passionate about it, just some cold-hearted rules you are trying to follow.


I find "dating" a highly undesirable method for starting a romantic relationship, and I have no rules.


Then I guess between you, me and most people, it would be something like that:

1. Me and most people agree dating is a way to start romantic relationship. You don't.

2. You and most people agree that friendship precludes romantic relationship. I find this situation unfair (well I guess I can "agree" in a sense that if most people operate this way then it becomes self fulfilling prophecy, but I don't "like" it, nor do I understand the motive behind it)

So both of us agrees with most people on something and disagrees with them on something else, but both of our areas of agreement/disagreement are different.



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14 Nov 2019, 9:47 pm

DW_a_mom wrote:
Marknis wrote:
Why isn’t anyone replying to me?


Which post? If it's the one on page 3, I can't speak for anyone else, but you already know (or should, I've said it enough) my response to your predicament: MOVE. And I realize you don't feel you have that option. So I'm at a loss on how to help you, to be honest. But I do feel for you and always will.

In regards to your post on page 2, its one of several I was thinking of when I wrote my generalized response on page 3.


I haven't read any of the exchanges between you and Marknis, nor do I know Marknis situation. But the idea of "moving" sort of rings the bell. I been moving a lot -- but each time I moved I found "academic" reasons to do so -- as in finishing a position at one university and starting at the other. And each time I moved I was really hoping for the best but then it didn't last so I wanted to move again.

Well, as of my current situation now, I wish I were to move too, but I can't: this time I am not a postdoc, this time I started a second Ph.D., so ending Ph.D. unfinished or transfering to a different Ph.D. program without good academic reason, really wouldn't look good on my CV. So I guess I am stuck where I am for another couple of years. And I am really "not" looking forward to graduating, since getting a postdoc really isn't guaranteed. So, strangely enough, I am trying to stay where I am as long as possible -- just to be financially secure (I get a small salary as a TA) -- even though I really don't like it where I am.

So this brings me to the Marknis. Like I said, I have no idea what his situation is. But like in general, it seems like moving might be hard for a lot of people, since most people are tied up either to their school or their work or whatever. Or are you saying Marknis situation is different?

I mean if you know how to move "despite" school/job, I would love to hear your advice, since I would love to move too. I just don't know how to do it without sacrificing my career. But if you know how, please tell me. And by the way I am not being sarcastic at all. I am willing to be creative with my career -- as evident with my doing a second Ph.D. which is really not a standard thing to do -- but one thing I "must" do is stay in the field of theoretical physics. So if you can tell me how I can move without sacrificing my aspiration to work as a theoretical physicist, please tell me!



rdos
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15 Nov 2019, 4:54 am

DW_a_mom wrote:
rdos wrote:
QFT wrote:
rdos wrote:
I find friends first completely unsatisfactory. I want passion in a relationship, and the friendship road will lead to a boring relationship with poor attachment. Suboptimal in every way. A relationship should start with a crush and friendship should be last, not first.


That just begs the question. Why does friendship precludes passion?


Because passion is based on infatuation (past or present), and I cannot get infatuated with a friend.



I don't agree with this as a generalized statement, that passion is based on infatuation. Passion is something that can grow and develop as you get to know more aspects of a person. I know many couples who weren't attracted to each other when they first met, but became very passionate about each other later. It's about what you are open to.


I don't think attraction has anything to do with passion. Nor is getting a crush / infatuated related to attraction. I'd say that "attraction" is an NT concept where people weigh in all kinds of stuff that I normally won't include in it. For me, attraction is physical attraction (looks), and I have some minimum requirements in that area, but once those are met, looks don't matter. For NTs, attraction is looks, education, money, cultural preferences and a lot of other stuff that I don't care about in regards to a potential partner. Actually, the lack of including these traits in "attraction" is quite compatible with doing courtship at a distance without conversation as you won't get to know them that way. Also, I disagree that I can become more attracted or passionate about somebody by learning more about their cultural preferences, and it has nothing to do with openness.

The thing about infatuation and passion is that they are necessary to form a strong bond, and to develop a natural communication, and I think this is very important in a relationship. For NDs, this cannot be replaced with being close friends and dating typically kills infatuation.



Last edited by rdos on 15 Nov 2019, 5:30 am, edited 2 times in total.

rdos
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15 Nov 2019, 5:08 am

QFT wrote:
What do you mean by "infaturation"? If you mean just something at the very beginning, how can it last then?


A crush creates a chain of events that won't be triggered without it, so this is not only important in the beginning. I've shown with a research study that high infatuation scores create stronger attachment and that dating "kills" infatuation and results in stagnating attachment. Infatuation also contributes to keeping things at a distance for a longer time, which is essential for developing efficient communication skills that don't rely on verbal poking.

QFT wrote:
And in any case the question is: why is it easier to be infaturated with a stranger than with a friend? It seems backward.


I think that is biology. I'm unable to get infatuated with a friend.

QFT wrote:
rdos wrote:
A friendship is something that is beneficial for both parties, and preferentially without too many emotions. It only continues as long as it is still beneficial. Something that is highly incompatible with a longterm relationship.


That sounds more like a user-friend than a real friend. I think in case of real friends they aren't just there to help each other with homework; they are there because they genuinely care about each other. Like if I think of the friends my parents had for several decades, I don't think their friends were helping them get a job or anything -- nor do I think they helped their friends get a job either -- yet they were still friends, despite the lack of real tangible help. I guess they liked to spend time together -- in their case they liked to go to backpacking trips -- in fact thats what started their friendship. I guess for other people its different. But the scenario of "some" common interest -- not necesserely anything I have specific examples of -- is what brings people together, and then they remain friends because they grew together over time. At least thats how I think of it.


That's also biology. I have no natural concept of friendships, but based on how other people work, I've developed a concept that seems to be useful and beneficial and which doesn't make me open to exploitation.

I'm sure many other NDs work the same way because NDs have much fewer friendships, and many of these are mixed gender and want-to-be relationships.

QFT wrote:
2. You and most people agree that friendship precludes romantic relationship. I find this situation unfair (well I guess I can "agree" in a sense that if most people operate this way then it becomes self fulfilling prophecy, but I don't "like" it, nor do I understand the motive behind it)


Nope. It's biology. I cannot get a crush on, or develop romantic feelings for, somebody I know well. It never happened, and it wasn't because I knew it worked that way, rather this is a conclusion I've drawn based on past experiences. So, the issue is not really if you are friends first, but if you know each other well beforehand. The most important might be if you have talked to each other because this could explain why dating is so bad for NDs. That's also why advice like "strike up a conversation" instead of "play the eye contact game" is so bad between NDs.



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15 Nov 2019, 11:29 am

I agree on a lot of points here except for this: I can't get attached to anyone I don't know at all. I can be attracted to someone I don't know (all physical unless I see them interacting with someone else and pick up thought processes/hints of personality; not good with NT eye games because ASD), but there's not too much of a chance that I'm going to act on that.

If I meet someone in the course of doing whatever I'm doing (Except I don't date people I work with - otherwise my work would be a veritable goldmine :) ), I can start something platonic that may or may not become romantic.

Will pick this up later, because I need to go to work...



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15 Nov 2019, 11:53 am

QFT wrote:

I haven't read any of the exchanges between you and Marknis, nor do I know Marknis situation. But the idea of "moving" sort of rings the bell. I been moving a lot -- but each time I moved I found "academic" reasons to do so -- as in finishing a position at one university and starting at the other. And each time I moved I was really hoping for the best but then it didn't last so I wanted to move again.

So this brings me to the Marknis. Like I said, I have no idea what his situation is. But like in general, it seems like moving might be hard for a lot of people, since most people are tied up either to their school or their work or whatever. Or are you saying Marknis situation is different?


My life situation is horrible. I live with a control freak mother, my finances are at their all time low, I am treated poorly at work, my friendships shrink every year (They either move away or tell me to f**k off), I am in the dark about my legal information and what I think I need to do to get it is a nightmare for me, and nothing ever goes my way at all.



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15 Nov 2019, 12:15 pm

Marknis wrote:
QFT wrote:

I haven't read any of the exchanges between you and Marknis, nor do I know Marknis situation. But the idea of "moving" sort of rings the bell. I been moving a lot -- but each time I moved I found "academic" reasons to do so -- as in finishing a position at one university and starting at the other. And each time I moved I was really hoping for the best but then it didn't last so I wanted to move again.

So this brings me to the Marknis. Like I said, I have no idea what his situation is. But like in general, it seems like moving might be hard for a lot of people, since most people are tied up either to their school or their work or whatever. Or are you saying Marknis situation is different?


My life situation is horrible. I live with a control freak mother, my finances are at their all time low, I am treated poorly at work, my friendships shrink every year (They either move away or tell me to f**k off), I am in the dark about my legal information and what I think I need to do to get it is a nightmare for me, and nothing ever goes my way at all.


In many ways, I was you about 30 years ago. My mother was very controlling. Parents don't live forever and neither do you.

I think if you tell us what state you live in, people can suggest first steps for you to assess your legal situation and any services which may be available.



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15 Nov 2019, 1:45 pm

Archmage Arcane wrote:
Marknis wrote:
QFT wrote:

I haven't read any of the exchanges between you and Marknis, nor do I know Marknis situation. But the idea of "moving" sort of rings the bell. I been moving a lot -- but each time I moved I found "academic" reasons to do so -- as in finishing a position at one university and starting at the other. And each time I moved I was really hoping for the best but then it didn't last so I wanted to move again.

So this brings me to the Marknis. Like I said, I have no idea what his situation is. But like in general, it seems like moving might be hard for a lot of people, since most people are tied up either to their school or their work or whatever. Or are you saying Marknis situation is different?


My life situation is horrible. I live with a control freak mother, my finances are at their all time low, I am treated poorly at work, my friendships shrink every year (They either move away or tell me to f**k off), I am in the dark about my legal information and what I think I need to do to get it is a nightmare for me, and nothing ever goes my way at all.


In many ways, I was you about 30 years ago. My mother was very controlling. Parents don't live forever and neither do you.

I think if you tell us what state you live in, people can suggest first steps for you to assess your legal situation and any services which may be available.


I live in Texas and my experience with services here are very underwhelming.



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15 Nov 2019, 2:11 pm

rdos wrote:
I've shown with a research study that high infatuation scores create stronger attachment and that dating "kills" infatuation and results in stagnating attachment.


But then how come there are so many relationships that started with dating?

And how do you envision a relationship without dating?

rdos wrote:
Infatuation also contributes to keeping things at a distance for a longer time,


That is also counterintuitive. Why would people want to keep distance if they are infaturated? I would think the opposite: infaturation would make people want to jump closer to each other?

rdos wrote:
QFT wrote:
rdos wrote:
A friendship is something that is beneficial for both parties, and preferentially without too many emotions. It only continues as long as it is still beneficial. Something that is highly incompatible with a longterm relationship.


That sounds more like a user-friend than a real friend. I think in case of real friends they aren't just there to help each other with homework; they are there because they genuinely care about each other. Like if I think of the friends my parents had for several decades, I don't think their friends were helping them get a job or anything -- nor do I think they helped their friends get a job either -- yet they were still friends, despite the lack of real tangible help. I guess they liked to spend time together -- in their case they liked to go to backpacking trips -- in fact thats what started their friendship. I guess for other people its different. But the scenario of "some" common interest -- not necesserely anything I have specific examples of -- is what brings people together, and then they remain friends because they grew together over time. At least thats how I think of it.


That's also biology. I have no natural concept of friendships, but based on how other people work, I've developed a concept that seems to be useful and beneficial and which doesn't make me open to exploitation.


So you just told me that its because you, personally, can't make friendships due to your ASD. But then how come you make that statement general and apply it to NT-s as well?

rdos wrote:
Nope. It's biology. I cannot get a crush on, or develop romantic feelings for, somebody I know well.


But then in case of long term relationship, you will eventually know your partner well. So what then? Will your attraction disappear? How will the relationship ever last?



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15 Nov 2019, 2:13 pm

Marknis wrote:
QFT wrote:

I haven't read any of the exchanges between you and Marknis, nor do I know Marknis situation. But the idea of "moving" sort of rings the bell. I been moving a lot -- but each time I moved I found "academic" reasons to do so -- as in finishing a position at one university and starting at the other. And each time I moved I was really hoping for the best but then it didn't last so I wanted to move again.

So this brings me to the Marknis. Like I said, I have no idea what his situation is. But like in general, it seems like moving might be hard for a lot of people, since most people are tied up either to their school or their work or whatever. Or are you saying Marknis situation is different?


My life situation is horrible. I live with a control freak mother, my finances are at their all time low, I am treated poorly at work, my friendships shrink every year (They either move away or tell me to f**k off), I am in the dark about my legal information and what I think I need to do to get it is a nightmare for me, and nothing ever goes my way at all.


By legal, are you saying that your mother is legally entitled to control you because the courts declared you insane?



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15 Nov 2019, 2:44 pm

QFT wrote:
Marknis wrote:
QFT wrote:

I haven't read any of the exchanges between you and Marknis, nor do I know Marknis situation. But the idea of "moving" sort of rings the bell. I been moving a lot -- but each time I moved I found "academic" reasons to do so -- as in finishing a position at one university and starting at the other. And each time I moved I was really hoping for the best but then it didn't last so I wanted to move again.

So this brings me to the Marknis. Like I said, I have no idea what his situation is. But like in general, it seems like moving might be hard for a lot of people, since most people are tied up either to their school or their work or whatever. Or are you saying Marknis situation is different?


My life situation is horrible. I live with a control freak mother, my finances are at their all time low, I am treated poorly at work, my friendships shrink every year (They either move away or tell me to f**k off), I am in the dark about my legal information and what I think I need to do to get it is a nightmare for me, and nothing ever goes my way at all.


By legal, are you saying that your mother is legally entitled to control you because the courts declared you insane?


She just withholds a lot of information from me and she caused me to suffer developmental snags that ruined my self-esteem and life motivation. I’ve never had a court declare me insane.



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15 Nov 2019, 2:48 pm

Marknis wrote:
QFT wrote:
Marknis wrote:
QFT wrote:

I haven't read any of the exchanges between you and Marknis, nor do I know Marknis situation. But the idea of "moving" sort of rings the bell. I been moving a lot -- but each time I moved I found "academic" reasons to do so -- as in finishing a position at one university and starting at the other. And each time I moved I was really hoping for the best but then it didn't last so I wanted to move again.

So this brings me to the Marknis. Like I said, I have no idea what his situation is. But like in general, it seems like moving might be hard for a lot of people, since most people are tied up either to their school or their work or whatever. Or are you saying Marknis situation is different?


My life situation is horrible. I live with a control freak mother, my finances are at their all time low, I am treated poorly at work, my friendships shrink every year (They either move away or tell me to f**k off), I am in the dark about my legal information and what I think I need to do to get it is a nightmare for me, and nothing ever goes my way at all.


By legal, are you saying that your mother is legally entitled to control you because the courts declared you insane?


She just withholds a lot of information from me and she caused me to suffer developmental snags that ruined my self-esteem and life motivation. I’ve never had a court declare me insane.


What information does she withhold?

And in what way is it related to anything legal?