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Marknis
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15 Nov 2019, 3:08 pm

QFT wrote:
Marknis wrote:
QFT wrote:
Marknis wrote:
QFT wrote:

I haven't read any of the exchanges between you and Marknis, nor do I know Marknis situation. But the idea of "moving" sort of rings the bell. I been moving a lot -- but each time I moved I found "academic" reasons to do so -- as in finishing a position at one university and starting at the other. And each time I moved I was really hoping for the best but then it didn't last so I wanted to move again.

So this brings me to the Marknis. Like I said, I have no idea what his situation is. But like in general, it seems like moving might be hard for a lot of people, since most people are tied up either to their school or their work or whatever. Or are you saying Marknis situation is different?


My life situation is horrible. I live with a control freak mother, my finances are at their all time low, I am treated poorly at work, my friendships shrink every year (They either move away or tell me to f**k off), I am in the dark about my legal information and what I think I need to do to get it is a nightmare for me, and nothing ever goes my way at all.


By legal, are you saying that your mother is legally entitled to control you because the courts declared you insane?


She just withholds a lot of information from me and she caused me to suffer developmental snags that ruined my self-esteem and life motivation. I’ve never had a court declare me insane.


What information does she withhold?

And in what way is it related to anything legal?


I am not quite sure in all honesty. I remember I needed some sort of legal form printed off if I wanted to join a social program at the college I’ve attended but she refused to give it out and I couldn’t join the program.



QFT
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15 Nov 2019, 3:11 pm

Marknis wrote:
QFT wrote:
Marknis wrote:
QFT wrote:
Marknis wrote:
QFT wrote:

I haven't read any of the exchanges between you and Marknis, nor do I know Marknis situation. But the idea of "moving" sort of rings the bell. I been moving a lot -- but each time I moved I found "academic" reasons to do so -- as in finishing a position at one university and starting at the other. And each time I moved I was really hoping for the best but then it didn't last so I wanted to move again.

So this brings me to the Marknis. Like I said, I have no idea what his situation is. But like in general, it seems like moving might be hard for a lot of people, since most people are tied up either to their school or their work or whatever. Or are you saying Marknis situation is different?


My life situation is horrible. I live with a control freak mother, my finances are at their all time low, I am treated poorly at work, my friendships shrink every year (They either move away or tell me to f**k off), I am in the dark about my legal information and what I think I need to do to get it is a nightmare for me, and nothing ever goes my way at all.


By legal, are you saying that your mother is legally entitled to control you because the courts declared you insane?


She just withholds a lot of information from me and she caused me to suffer developmental snags that ruined my self-esteem and life motivation. I’ve never had a court declare me insane.


What information does she withhold?

And in what way is it related to anything legal?


I am not quite sure in all honesty. I remember I needed some sort of legal form printed off if I wanted to join a social program at the college I’ve attended but she refused to give it out and I couldn’t join the program.


Why couldn't you print it out on the university computer, or in the computer at Kinkos, or at any number of other places?



rdos
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15 Nov 2019, 3:26 pm

QFT wrote:
But then how come there are so many relationships that started with dating?


Because it is a norm and because it works for NTs.

QFT wrote:
And how do you envision a relationship without dating?


Many possibilities, but an obvious one is that you just decide you are a couple (either through talking or in a more implicit way), or just move together without even talking about being together.

QFT wrote:
That is also counterintuitive. Why would people want to keep distance if they are infaturated? I would think the opposite: infaturation would make people want to jump closer to each other?


That's because if you lack infatuation you will not have enough motivation to pursue love at a distance.

QFT wrote:
So you just told me that its because you, personally, can't make friendships due to your ASD.


First, I don't have ASD (not diagnosed). Second, I can make friendships but I have made up my own rules that are beneficial to me.

QFT wrote:
But then how come you make that statement general and apply it to NT-s as well?


I don't think NTs benefit from infatuation, ND-style friendships or distance things. Their preferences are perfectly matched with cultural rules like dating.

QFT wrote:
rdos wrote:
Nope. It's biology. I cannot get a crush on, or develop romantic feelings for, somebody I know well.


But then in case of long term relationship, you will eventually know your partner well. So what then? Will your attraction disappear? How will the relationship ever last?


I don't base love or relationships on attraction. I thought that was very clear. Relationships last because of attachment (bonding), not attraction. Something that is true for NTs and NDs alike. The main difference is that NTs build attachment with sex during dating, while it is infatuation that builds an attachment for NDs. So, NTs can easily convert friendships into a relationship by starting to have sex, but this doesn't work for many NDs since they don't bond with sex.



QFT
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15 Nov 2019, 6:15 pm

rdos wrote:
QFT wrote:
And how do you envision a relationship without dating?


Many possibilities, but an obvious one is that you just decide you are a couple (either through talking or in a more implicit way), or just move together without even talking about being together.


Don't you think this is kinda messed up? I would think that if someone tries to move together without even knowing you, its a really good sign that they might have some ulterior motives to put it mildly.

rdos wrote:
QFT wrote:
That is also counterintuitive. Why would people want to keep distance if they are infaturated? I would think the opposite: infaturation would make people want to jump closer to each other?


That's because if you lack infatuation you will not have enough motivation to pursue love at a distance.


Its true that *if meeting is impossible* (finances, distance, etc) then infaturation might motivate people to continue a relationship anyway. But that doesn't mean that infaturation would dissuade people from trying to meet. Quite the opposite in fact. They want to be with each other so much that

a) Even if they can't meet they pursue relationship anyway
b) If there is any slightest chance of meeting, they grab that opportunity and meet

But you seem to say something else. You seem to say they CAN meet but they are like "oh no, lets not meet: we are infaturated with each other; lets instead meet with someone I am not infaturated with". That just makes no sense.

rdos wrote:
QFT wrote:
So you just told me that its because you, personally, can't make friendships due to your ASD.


First, I don't have ASD (not diagnosed).


Just because you weren't diagnosed with someone it doesn't mean you don't have it.

In any case, I am not diagnosing you, I don't have enough information to do so. I was just going off of what you said: you implied in previous replies as if you had it, when you referred to yourself as ND. Or are you saying that by ND you mean you have something "other than" ASD? If you were to diagnose yourself, what would you diagnose yourself as?

rdos wrote:
I don't think NTs benefit from infatuation, ND-style friendships or distance things. Their preferences are perfectly matched with cultural rules like dating.


Thats the first time I hear anything along those lines. I would have thought that NT-s are more emotional and aspies are more logical; so, if anything, infaturation would affect NT-s more.

I am not saying it doesn't affect aspies. I think it affects everyone. Its just weird you said it affects aspies "more" than NT-s, since most people that would try to make a distinction between those two groups would tend to say the opposite.

rdos wrote:

QFT wrote:
But then in case of long term relationship, you will eventually know your partner well. So what then? Will your attraction disappear? How will the relationship ever last?


I don't base love or relationships on attraction. I thought that was very clear. Relationships last because of attachment (bonding), not attraction. Something that is true for NTs and NDs alike.


But that contradicts what you said earlier. You were saying that you can't form relationship with friends -- despite obvious benefits of friendship bond -- is that presumably you coudn't get attracted to your friends. So you were implying that attraction is something that is more important than everything else put together. But now all of a sudden you are saying that no, attraction isn't important after all. So what is your actual opinion then? And how do those seemingly-contradictory things you were saying fit togehter?

rdos wrote:
The main difference is that NTs build attachment with sex during dating, while it is infatuation that builds an attachment for NDs. So, NTs can easily convert friendships into a relationship by starting to have sex, but this doesn't work for many NDs since they don't bond with sex.


Are you saying NDs don't like sex because of sensory issues? If not, then why else would NDs be less likely to bond through sex than NTs?

If you are talking about the fact that NDs have trouble bonding altogether, then this would affect them all across the board, not just sex. But now you are saying NDs "can" bond through infaturation, just not sex. That sounds quite a bit different from anything I heard before.



DW_a_mom
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15 Nov 2019, 6:46 pm

QFT wrote:
I mean if you know how to move "despite" school/job, I would love to hear your advice, since I would love to move too. I just don't know how to do it without sacrificing my career. But if you know how, please tell me. And by the way I am not being sarcastic at all. I am willing to be creative with my career -- as evident with my doing a second Ph.D. which is really not a standard thing to do -- but one thing I "must" do is stay in the field of theoretical physics. So if you can tell me how I can move without sacrificing my aspiration to work as a theoretical physicist, please tell me!


Some fields are easier to move around with than others. In mine, I can probably find work anywhere. Not necessarily "good" work, but work. I don't know what it takes in your field so I really cannot comment.


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rdos
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16 Nov 2019, 5:29 am

QFT wrote:
rdos wrote:
That's because if you lack infatuation you will not have enough motivation to pursue love at a distance.


Its true that *if meeting is impossible* (finances, distance, etc) then infaturation might motivate people to continue a relationship anyway. But that doesn't mean that infaturation would dissuade people from trying to meet. Quite the opposite in fact. They want to be with each other so much that

a) Even if they can't meet they pursue relationship anyway
b) If there is any slightest chance of meeting, they grab that opportunity and meet

But you seem to say something else. You seem to say they CAN meet but they are like "oh no, lets not meet: we are infaturated with each other; lets instead meet with someone I am not infaturated with". That just makes no sense.


It might seem contradictory to you but not to me. I've had several of these distance "things", mainly in school, but also a recent one that soon has lasted six years. I'm not infatuated anymore, but I don't need to be as I have a mind-to-mind communication connection that works just as well as a typical conversation.

QFT wrote:
In any case, I am not diagnosing you, I don't have enough information to do so. I was just going off of what you said: you implied in previous replies as if you had it, when you referred to yourself as ND. Or are you saying that by ND you mean you have something "other than" ASD? If you were to diagnose yourself, what would you diagnose yourself as?


Having ASD implies you have problems with your ND traits, but I don't have any problems with them and so I cannot get diagnosed with ASD.

QFT wrote:
Thats the first time I hear anything along those lines. I would have thought that NT-s are more emotional and aspies are more logical; so, if anything, infaturation would affect NT-s more.


The belief that NTs are more emotional than NDs is simply false. NTs can express their emotions better with facial expressions and talking about them, but that doesn't mean they are more emotional.

QFT wrote:
I am not saying it doesn't affect aspies. I think it affects everyone. Its just weird you said it affects aspies "more" than NT-s, since most people that would try to make a distinction between those two groups would tend to say the opposite.


The fact is that NDs have much higher infatuation scores than NTs, while the attachment scores are similar.

Reference:
Leif Ekblad (2018). Infatuation and attachment : How do they differ in autism and neurodiversity? PsyArXiv, doi: 10.31234/osf.io/dw4u2

QFT wrote:
But that contradicts what you said earlier. You were saying that you can't form relationship with friends -- despite obvious benefits of friendship bond -- is that presumably you coudn't get attracted to your friends. So you were implying that attraction is something that is more important than everything else put together. But now all of a sudden you are saying that no, attraction isn't important after all. So what is your actual opinion then? And how do those seemingly-contradictory things you were saying fit togehter?


I don't think it is contradictory. I don't bond with friends at all. Friendship for me is a kind of companionship based on mutual benefits. When there no longer is a benefit with the friendship, it simply dies because contact frequency gets longer and longer. In fact, it is that kind of framework that people think NDs should use for longterm relationships, that actually won't become longterm because people will drift apart.

When it comes to crushes and infatuation, those are not based on attraction, and so attraction plays no role at all. Infatuation is a chemical thing in the brain that motivates you to pursue somebody regardless of attraction.

QFT wrote:
Are you saying NDs don't like sex because of sensory issues? If not, then why else would NDs be less likely to bond through sex than NTs?


In the current culture, NDs are several times more likely to identify as asexual, which makes no sense since reproduction is essential for the survival of genes. Not even half of ND women will answer 'no' to being asexual. ND men are also over-represented, while almost no NT guys will claim to be asexual. I'm sure this is not because of sensory issues since it doesn't cluster with sensory issues. Instead, it correlates strongly with disgust for sexual intercourse, and to a lesser degree to dating. Given that, I find it highly unlikely that NDs would bond with sexual intercourse.

Reference:
Leif Ekblad (2018). Asexuality : A possible background and how it relates to autism and neurodiversity. PsyArXiv, doi: 10.31234/osf.io/stpma