Liberty/Freedom

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Example, just for the sake of an example:

If you recieve $2000/month with UBI and you earn 100 dollars, your UBI is reduced by 30 dollars.
You still end up with $2070 though, that's 70 dollars more than if you didn't work. Though, taxation haven't been accounted for in this example, but you get the picture.




That's the hypocrisy that usually comes from people who's financian situation allow themselves to say "no thanks" to jobs that no one really wants.

In other words: YOU want to be able to say "no thanks" to this job... but other people who may not be so lucky to be in your situation, should be forced to do the job?

It's always easy to talk about "reponsibility" and "duty" when oneself don't have to do the duty.
That's why I proposed freedom for everybody - because I'm no hypocrit.

Last edited by thinkinginpictures on 01 Dec 2019, 1:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

I'm in favour of basic income.

I have a job. Check mate.




No, you're just a delusional utopian authoritarian idealist with a tenuous grasp of reality and a heaping helping of barely-checked rage against people with money.




Some people may want to pay their bills more than they don't want to do the job. It's a calculated choice on their part, not some slave-master cracking the whip. Then there is the old saying "if you're good at something, never do it for free."

I have a hunch that people are operating under different definitions of "freedom."

But I presume you don't have to - with the underscore of the words "have to" do the job you don't like.
The same with rich people. They have a better job - in the summer they can sit in an Airconditioned office, while other people HAVE TO work outside in the heat of 30 degress celcius.

The principle extends beyond just having a job. Unless you can prove that you have a job where you HAVE TO do a job that you don't like, then you can say you're content with your situation and don't want UBI - without being a hypocrit.

Most people can't.

Well, my definition of freedom is that you can tell me what NOT to do. But nobody should tell me what to do.

I'd rather live under heavy restrictions, than being imposed on me a single duty.

Last edited by thinkinginpictures on 01 Dec 2019, 1:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

I "have to" if I want to keep living in my nice big apartment. I "have to" if I want to live of something other than oatmeal and noodles. I "have to" if I want to be able to do anything in my leisure time. I "have to" if I want too keep the lights on and the hot water running. But no, no one will come and shoot me if I dont, so I guess that's something.

And for the love of Jove learn to spell the word "hypocrite" before you start throwing it around.

You seem to be okay with taxation.

You don't have to. You want to. There's a huge difference.

If you can't afford medicine or an appartment at all, or can't afford oatmeal if you don't work, then you HAVE TO work.

UBI will secure you a basic life with food, shelter, water, electricity etc., without working. If you want luxuries, you work, or earn your (extra) money otherwise.

Then of course there should still be disability benefits for those who can't work or can't work as much as other people.

But nobody should be thrown out of their cheap appartments and denied medicine, food, shelter etc. because they don't work.

Last edited by thinkinginpictures on 01 Dec 2019, 1:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Unless it's a "head tax" where you are forced to pay a tax regardless of whether or not you earned/was given money, then taxation isn't a duty per see. Tax is automatically withdrawn from your salary before you even get it paid.

You also choose how to earn your money for the taxes (provided of course, it's by legal means).

That's why I don't consider tax a duty, at least not the same sort of duty as work duty (jury duty, conscription, labor duty etc.)

In a different thread you say that we should prevent all the rich and talented people from defecting. In this thread all civic duties are dispensed with and everyone receives UBI.

It would be hypocritical to force people work. Are the climate scientist allowed to stay at home and live on UBI?

I guess my question would be, 'what would I do with myself?'

I really don't see how having food, water and a roof is "living." My hamster has that. He only gets what I give him, some seeds, a wheel. What happens if one day I die? He'll starve to death in his cage.

What happens if one day your government dies? That's what happens when socialist countries run out of other people's money. What will you do, thinkinginpictures? Will you just starve to death?

I'm not much into leaving my fate in the hands of the government.