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Vexcalibur
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15 Feb 2008, 12:33 pm

Well, It is not a deal of not having to do it but more of a deal of having to not do it. In many ways God would have the obligation to avoid cleaning our own mess as much as possible.



iamnotaparakeet
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15 Feb 2008, 12:38 pm

Interesting idea, but who decides? I would say He isn't responsible for our actions, but if He wishes to help, who is to stop Him?



Vexcalibur
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15 Feb 2008, 12:43 pm

Well, it would be God himself, I don't think God wins anything out of a peaceful world that's totally perfect because of his direct work, in fact I would say that he wants us to do it independently to allow an outcome that's more perfect than what he would do alone, I dunno...

A very lame way to put it would be, why doesn't certain player use cheat codes when he plays sim city?



iamnotaparakeet
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15 Feb 2008, 12:50 pm

I would think that God would want us to willfully do what is pleasing to Him.



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16 Feb 2008, 6:49 am

A song asking the same question:

http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=9C0c-8EOphc



princess_1989
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23 Feb 2008, 3:50 pm

God allows bad things to happen in order to test our endurance. He would never give too much to bare. He loves us and wants to know that we will be faithful and acknowledge him in times of trouble.



Phagocyte
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23 Feb 2008, 4:06 pm

princess_1989 wrote:
God allows bad things to happen in order to test our endurance. He would never give too much to bare. He loves us and wants to know that we will be faithful and acknowledge him in times of trouble.


So...a rape and/or murder victim isn't given "too much to bear?" "He" gives plenty of people too much to bear.


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23 Feb 2008, 11:00 pm

What about natural evil? (Sorry if that falls outside the discussion topic...) Diseases, natural disasters, severe mental illness, etc. aren't always clearly or directly caused by human misuse of free will. I can't believe that a benevolent omnipotent god would allow as much suffering as there is.

If God is omnipotent, then would people need to know and experience any evil to feel happiness? Surely he/she/it could do anything...



monty
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24 Feb 2008, 12:08 pm

princess_1989 wrote:
God allows bad things to happen in order to test our endurance. He would never give too much to bare.


The problem with this common sentiment is that people often are given more than they can bear. The millions in the Nazi camps, the victims of machetes in Rwanda or bullets in Kampuchea were not tested to their limits. They were brutally annihilated. Let's not ignore the big picture and the tough questions. We don't know if there is a God, but it is clear that if there is, that God tolerates incredible evil.



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24 Feb 2008, 12:30 pm

princess_1989 wrote:
God allows bad things to happen in order to test our endurance. He would never give too much to bare. He loves us and wants to know that we will be faithful and acknowledge him in times of trouble.


something tells me he doesn't care about a lot of people
every time I used to pray things went bad
I reached where I am alone I refuse to pay any homage to this "god"
I personally hate everything about him, everything he talks about, just the whole idea really
how come the good suffer and the bad live in luxury :?



SilverProteus
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24 Feb 2008, 2:05 pm

To put it very simply, there's a natural order to things and the rest is relatively incomprehensible.

On natural order of things: imagine what the world would be like if there was no disease and no death? It doesn't really make much sense to ask god to stop death and disease, since they're both deemed 'bad' by people. Should He stop the good things as well? All good and no bad?

As far as bad things go, death isn't a bad thing. Suffering is. And there will always be suffering, one way or another.

For those who believe in a Divine Plan...the whole thing is way too complex for the human mind to possibly comprehend. How can one question such motives?

For those who don't, well then..."things happen." Things happen to everybody.Once again, there's no way of knowing why nor what purpose they serve.

I'm a pessimist sittin' on the fence. I don't know anything.


EDIT: Turned out a bit confusing (for a change). I'm trying to see it from more than one angle.


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Last edited by SilverProteus on 24 Feb 2008, 2:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Legato
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24 Feb 2008, 2:05 pm

Simple answer:

Bad stuff happens. Every person on this planet gets into f****d up situations. Deal with what happens in what ever way you can. A strong support network of family and friends helps.

The idea of this omnibenevolent creature watching over you might help you deal with it too, whatever, but the minute you assume that this creature exists, you bring in a whole world of hurt: disassociation from reality, judgementalness, and almost completely erradicate the necessity of logic for basic thought, and instead create a reality based upon how you would like the world to be.



Legato
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24 Feb 2008, 2:08 pm

SilverProteus wrote:
As far as bad things go, death isn't a bad thing. Suffering is. And there will always be suffering, one way or another.


Suffering in and of itself isn't a bad thing. We learn a lot from suffering. We grow stronger emotionally and psychologically. There is a certain degree of suffering, almost always when it's created by humans to purposely make another suffer, that it becomes "bad".

That's my opinion anyway :)



SilverProteus
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24 Feb 2008, 2:15 pm

Legato wrote:
SilverProteus wrote:
As far as bad things go, death isn't a bad thing. Suffering is. And there will always be suffering, one way or another.


Suffering in and of itself isn't a bad thing. We learn a lot from suffering. We grow stronger emotionally and psychologically. There is a certain degree of suffering, almost always when it's created by humans to purposely make another suffer, that it becomes "bad".

That's my opinion anyway :)


It's a bad thing when you're experiencing it. :P But I agree. We (usually) learn from our mistakes and 'grow'.

I blame the suffering caused by humans to purposely make the other suffer not God's problem, but the result of flawed humanity. Bullies, insecure people, people with problems - all sorts of problems - people problem.

Wanting a world where everybody's nice to everybody and we all 'get along' is extreme Utopian idealistic thinking and thus impossible. It's just too good to be true.;)


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Legato
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24 Feb 2008, 3:18 pm

Not only that but having a world where everybody's nice to everybody and we all 'get along' would be extremely horrible and boring. Ever read\watched 1984, Equilibrium, V for Vendetta, and a hundred others. That whole idea of everyone's nice and we all get along 100% of the time is nothing but a fascist ideal. The only way to make such a world possible is to make people the same. Take away our individuality, and everything that makes us different from each other.

Edit: You'll find a world like that feels more like slavery than life.



SilverProteus
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24 Feb 2008, 3:25 pm

Legato wrote:
Not only that but having a world where everybody's nice to everybody and we all 'get along' would be extremely horrible and boring. Ever read\watched 1984, Equilibrium, V for Vendetta, and a hundred others. That whole idea of everyone's nice and we all get along 100% of the time is nothing but a fascist ideal. The only way to make such a world possible is to make people the same. Take away our individuality, and everything that makes us different from each other.

Edit: You'll find a world like that feels more like slavery than life.


Interesting point of view. I agree on the "boring" aspect of it all.


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