TERF's - Feminists that don't think trans women are women

Page 17 of 17 [ 260 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 13, 14, 15, 16, 17

The_Walrus
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator

User avatar

Joined: 27 Jan 2010
Age: 25
Gender: Male
Posts: 7,271
Location: Reading, England

19 Jun 2020, 4:36 am

shlaifu wrote:
To continue with the sincere questions that don't mean harm (but if they do, tell me how, so I can reconsider):

What's an innate gender identity?
It's not biological, or we could (theoretically) test for it. That's basically the "female brain/male brain" concept.
But the medical argument is highly controversial anyway, because it means some dictor gets to decide who's genuine and who isn't.

It's not a social construct, otherwise it wouldn't be innate.

Identity (without gender) seems to be a complex mix of feedback loops between a brain and its environment. - yet, we don't have a discussion about whether I need to "accept" anyone's self-identification as valid, as there are identity thieves and con artists and simply crazy people. But furthermore, one's experience of one's own identity changes. Sometimes drastically due to trauma, sometimes intentionally through therapy, etc.
These things run against the notion of 'innate', and, worse, could lead to the idea of conversion therapy.

That leaves us with gender performance theory- i.e. gender as habitual performance.
Which is comparable to race. - which functions with the Kardashian example. They are "assigned" a race according to which of their actions is being evaluated/or whichever way is opportune to the critic. But that's only possible because they are visually ambiguous.
It wouldn't work if they were blonde and Scandinavian looking.
But performance theory is incompatible with innate identity

I think the honest answer to this is that we’re still figuring it out.

Based on the evidence we see atm, I think the safest conclusion is that people have an identity which is at least partially innate and rooted in biology. We don’t yet know exactly how it is rooted in biology because neuroscience is tough, but the gendered brains example you cited seems to work for at least some trans people. It may also be that whatever biological factors affect our gender identity are probabilistic rather than deterministic, and that probability could be affected by the intersection with social and societal factors. Some people grow to feel that they’re performing the wrong role, or even just that they want to perform their assigned role slightly differently, while some other people go “hold up, these genitals are wrong”.

There’s definitely an aspect to which gender is performative, what I like to call gender roles to distinguish from gender identity (which I view as largely innate). But the exact ins and outs, I don’t claim to understand. All I know is that some people experience gender dysphoria, which suggests an innate gender identity, and that’s the most illuminating thing about complex human experiences of gender.



ASPartOfMe
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 25 Aug 2013
Age: 63
Gender: Male
Posts: 22,735
Location: Long Island, New York

06 Jul 2020, 8:53 pm

J.K. Rowling calls gender transitioning 'a new kind of conversion therapy'

Quote:
"Harry Potter" author J.K. Rowling is back in the spotlight after stating on Twitter that young people are being "shunted towards" hormones and surgery that may not be in their best interests, and comparing the measures to "conversion therapy."

"Many, myself included, believe we are watching a new kind of conversion therapy for young gay people, who are being set on a lifelong path of medicalization that may result in the loss of their fertility and/or full sexual function," Rowling tweeted.

Rowling was responding to a July 4 post by Twitter user @TrinerScot, who called out the author for 'liking' a post by Twitter user @Manaxium that claimed hormone prescriptions were "the new antidepressants."

"Yes they are sometimes necessary and lifesaving, but they should be a last resort - not the first option. Pure laziness for those who would rather medicate than put in the time and effort to heal people's minds," read the post.

The post by @TrinerScot read: "Who had money on JK Rowling pivoting to supporting those who call people who take mental health medication 'lazy'? I take daily medication to function, this sentiment is beyond offensive, it is actively harmful to millions."

In the first of 11 tweets, Rowling began her response to @TrinerScot with: "I've ignored fake tweets attributed to me and RTed widely. I've ignored porn tweeted at children on a thread about their art. I've ignored death and rape threats. I'm not going to ignore this."

"When you lie about what I believe about mental health medication and when you misrepresent the views of a trans woman for whom I feel nothing but admiration and solidarity, you cross a line," Rowling continued.

Rowling goes on to write about her "own mental health challenges," and expressed concern over young people with mental health issues "being shunted towards hormones and surgery when this may not be in their best interests," before tweeting about conversion therapy. Rowling quotes a BBC documentary and a number of studies on the subject.

"None of that may trouble you or disturb your belief in your own righteousness. But if so, I can't pretend I care much about your bad opinion of me," Rowling concludes.

Responding to Rowling's tweet, transgender model and activist Munroe Bergdorf tweeted, "J.K. Rowling is not a scientist. She is not a doctor. She is not an expert on gender. She is not a supporter of our community.

"She is a billionaire, cisgender, heterosexual, white woman who has decided that she knows what is best for us and our bodies. This is not her fight."


_________________
Professionally Identified and joined WP August 26, 2013
DSM 5: Autism Spectrum Disorder, DSM IV: Aspergers Moderate Severity

My autism is not a superpower. It also isn’t some kind of god-forsaken, endless fountain of suffering inflicted on my family. It’s just part of who I am as a person. - Sara Luterman


Bradleigh
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 25 May 2008
Age: 30
Gender: Male
Posts: 6,063
Location: Brisbane, Australia

06 Jul 2020, 10:39 pm

I am really losing my patience in respect to Rowling, she has no idea of what she is saying in regards to homosexual and trans people. And doesn't explain that gay trans people are also accepted.

Calling it conversion therapy so bluntly and is so low. At this point I a really do think it is going to be important for those connected to her or franchise, like those on the Fantastic Beast movies, to disavow her opinions on these matters.

She has passed a point of anger, and now should be met by a type of disinterest.


_________________
Through dream I travel, at lantern's call
To consume the flames of a kingdom's fall


The_Walrus
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator

User avatar

Joined: 27 Jan 2010
Age: 25
Gender: Male
Posts: 7,271
Location: Reading, England

07 Jul 2020, 6:19 am

Mugglenet and The Leaky Cauldron have both announced that they will no longer link to JK’s website, use photos of her, or cover news relating to her outside of Harry Potter. These are websites I remember using a lot in my early days on the internet.

On the Fantastic Beasts side, Eddie Redmayne (star of The Danish Girl) has distanced himself from Rowling. I’m not sure if the franchise could really continue without her but it isn’t like it was doing particularly well with her either.